Monk- general discussion and feedback

[DerpyCubone]

Your definition of momentum is a bit off., it does not require a constant increase in speed. It's motion of mass and velocity.

This is the example used by Wiki (the greatest of sources!)
"For example, a heavy truck moving fast has a large momentum—it takes a large and prolonged force to get the truck up to this speed, and it takes a large and prolonged force to bring it to a stop afterwards."

There is no large or prolonged force bringing a monk to halt, it just stops.

Using your fists example, the force that is slowing down their momentum is the enemy face. If they didn't have momentum they would just halt instantly and do no damage. It's the momentum via the follow through that does the damage.

Also your real fight example doesn't work in a video game setting. Yes you are at a halt if your not punching at that moment, BUT you also don't just magically do less damage when you start back either, it doesn't take you 9 punches for you punches to hit their hardest.

[NoctisUmbra]

snip.

All I'm getting from all that is your issue with it is entirely due to your own perception. You begin by suggesting that it effects MNK far more than any other job. We've already established it does not hamper MNKs ability to perform. Please tell me how else it effects the job more than any other, because I don't see it.

What it appears to effect, based on your posts, is your vision of how MNK should be played. Unfortunately, that vision may not be the vision the dev team had when designing it, or a vision you share with fellow MNK players.

It is not a quality of life issue. It is a matter of preference. Unfortunately, the suggested fixes will in fact effect the balance that is already set and make MNK over-powered.

To actually answer your particular points regarding the various DPS jobs, yes... some fights like Titan introduce RNG elements into MNK's ability to DPS. Such mechanics may lead to MNK, a job otherwise not built with RNG mechanics within its rotations, having its DPS effected by RNG.

BLM DPS is RNG based. BRD DPS is RNG based. DPS jobs are no strangers to a bit of RNG as it is. Overall, the effect is not monumental.

As for DRG and SMN.

SMN has a long windup and due to it being DoT based and pet-based, DPS in general is greatly favoring sustained battles over burst ability.

DRG is a job without RNG. It is easiest to compare to MNK, yes. Ok, DRG will not suffer big drop from their top DPS mode due to losing buffs due to RNG either. However, on the flipside, a DRG going balls to the wall with DPS and playing absolutely perfect will lose in DPS to a MNK that just sits on the same target's flank and hits DRK > TwS > Snap Punch over and over again doing absolutely nothing else. The difference in the DPS ceiling between MNK and DRG is staggering. So much so, that DRG has some buffs coming in 2.1. It still won't compare to MNK though, as the devs likely consider their ability to increase BRD DPS as well.

This is why I'm saying that MNK isn't actually being effected more than DRG. DRG simply comes with reliable, consistent ST DPS. MNK, over the course of the same fight will have its highs and lows based on GL stacks, etc, but will still avg out at least as good as that DRG. In fact, as I've suggested before, MNKs currently perform far better than DRGs even when they drop their stacks a few times.

[RogueVamp13]

I would like to see:
1. like previously stated GL to lose 1 stack at a time from 3-2-1 instead of from 3-0.
2. Have Fist of Fire give 10% damage increase instead of 5% like it did in previous test phrase.

For me I feel that Mnk is well balance with regards to the other skills.

[Allyrion]

Snip

You're right that momentum does not have to include acceleration. I just used that in relation to the class.

In my fists example, momentum cannot be used literally. Otherwise, monks would be doing *less* damage over time cause they would be slowing down.
Momentum I'm using is in terms of fighting momentum. You fight, you build a rhythm and you get more into it thus you do more damage.

You stop for a little while, you lose all of that. You've got to build it back.
This makes sense to me. It *feels* right.
And that's what we're talking about right? Feelings. Cause we can all agree the damage is there.
Also, yes I think in a real fight that your punches at the start hit softer than your follow through punches.
Maybe it's not always 9 like it is for the monk, but the general concept is there.

I also think it makes more sense that dragoons don't suffer this.
That's because they're supposed to be dragon fighters. They should be more accustomed to waiting to get in range to attack.
It's more natural for them to face an unreachable enemies.

EDIT
There are drawbacks for every class. BLMs can't move a step without a dps loss unless a proc is up.
I made monk my main because of that (and because BLM was a bit too simple).
What I DIDN'T do is demand the devs change BLM to cast on the move cause it was frustrated being planted or losing a lot of damage.
Why? Because I understood that BLMs were balanced around that.
Balace-wise, they hit like a truck so some interruptions balance it out.
Design-wise, they require full concentration to summon that power....to hit like a truck.

I can appreciate that. Sometimes I still play it, but it's not the same as my monk.
All classes have their frustration. If you really love this class, you should appreciate it's weaknesses as well.
Short term buffs are clearly base class design.

[DerpyCubone]

Snip.

Again, for the last time, The DPS output isn't the issue, it is the hard halt to rotation through no fault of the players and nothing skill can overcome. It is not a tide, a give and take, a flow of battle. It is a ramp up, then a sudden cut off. It's climbing a mountain, then teleporting down.

Let's turn this around a bit. In a fight where you can keep GL up the while time, isn't that a bit unfair to other DPS? The monk will outperform them. On the other hand, no fight should be made and them go "oh the monk will keep GL... lets throw a vanish in there to wipe it off" That's lazy class design.

I guess what it boils down to is that the game is removing my GL, It's not falling off because I screwed up somewhere, It's off because the game says so via RNG or fight mechanics. That leads to more pressure during fights to get it back up, a harder time soloing, a harder time during trash portions of dungeons (I know trash doesn't matter but time = money and all that jazz). I think that is sloppy and can be improved. I'm not sure how exactly. There are several ideas, some would result in monk being OP, others are at least on the right track.

[NoctisUmbra]

snip

And again, it's a matter of your personal perception. As long as the DPS balance is there, there's really no need for them to break a working design and fix it for something so subjective.

I don't get why the mechanic is causing you so much stress/pressure but ultimately I don't see anything wrong with how GL works right now.

[DerpyCubone]

Snip

I like the idea of rhythm, and I 100% agree with alot of what you said there. There is a feel too it, and GL is like finding your stride in a fight. I 100% agree with that

Which is why when the enemy gets a shield around it for 3 seconds and you lose your GL that it doesn't feel right to me.

It's like a dance almost, you get into the groove then someone cuts the music. It's annoying and yea you will spend a few seconds getting back into the groove of the track again once it starts. But atleast for me I wouldn't just stop and stand there like I was at attention, it would be a slow down, a shift to a small shuffle while I waited.

[DerpyCubone]

And again, it's a matter of your personal perception. As long as the DPS balance is there, there's really no need for them to break a working design and fix it for something so subjective.

I don't get why the mechanic is causing you so much stress/pressure but ultimately I don't see anything wrong with how GL works right now.

Because the balance won't always be there. There will be fights were you can keep GL up all the time, and there will be fights when it will be extremely hard to keep up. That is part of the reason I would like to see this adjusted in the future.

[Allyrion]

Snip.

That's all just personal preference though. Not "lazy design".
You don't attack Garuda while she's doing her wind attack. You hide behind a rock because the game made you.
Is that lazy design? Because you couldn't keep attacking?

You lost GL3 while hiding. What's the difference? The boss just said they were better than you. If you tried to keep your flow of battle, you'd die in one shot. Just accept it. There's no flow if you're hiding behind a rock or waiting to be geocrushed etc.
So you start getting back into the flow after with the persistence of a monk!

Don't blame the design just cause you feel frustrated and can't appreciate it.
I think a sudden drop off is appropriate. It's not always about skill to keep it up. Sometimes there's nothing you can do.
That's life, right? Well, virtual life. We have to hide behind a rock sometimes when we'd rather be bashing Garuda's face in. That's virtual life too.

They may improve the base design of the monk in future patches. But first they need to build on what they have so the monk role has a chance to find its place.
Then they can improve on the base to really bring out the monk job in relation to other classes.
What we've got is what we have to go on. So I hope you all stop trying to make it something it isn't just because you can't appreciate what it is.

[NoctisUmbra]

Because the balance won't always be there. There will be fights were you can keep GL up all the time, and there will be fights when it will be extremely hard to keep up. That is part of the reason I would like to see this adjusted in the future.

Assumptions.

SE devs designed the jobs and balanced them. SE devs designed the content. They are going to continue to do so. Up to even the most recent communications from SE that involved upcoming adjustments to various jobs, they mention tweaking content so that melee DPS are less punished.

They design content with all jobs in mind, or at least strive to. No real issue currently that hasn't been addressed.