XIV WAR Tanking - Baseline Mitigation and PLD comparison

[SpookyGhost]

Do Paladin has Parry also or only Block?

PLD has both, you just can't have them both occur at the same time. I believe (?) WAR has a higher parry rate, though.

[Maelwys]

I'm also curious where exactly you get the "WAR gets bigger Parry+" from. PLD and WAR use the same gear. They have exactly the same base Parry (I just checked in game). Unless WAR magically gets more out of the same quantity of Parry (which is indicated absolutely nowhere), WAR and PLD have the exact same Parry.

I'd assume that along with the "WAR gets more Str, Str increases mitigation from Parry" argument, the fact that you can't trigger both Block and Parry on the same hit might come into play.

If memory serves, when your character gets hit, the check goes in order of: Dodge, then Block, then Parry.

If both a WAR and a PLD have an identical Parry stat, then we can expect that the PLD will actually Parry attacks very slightly less often than the WAR... because some of the hits the PLD receives will trigger a Block before the Parry has a chance to occur. The WAR can never block, so they get the "full" effect of all possible parries.

Miniscule and Ignorable? Perhaps. But there is a slight difference...

[Edit: Silly Daily Posting Limits...]

Except that you're making the assumption that Parry is more valuable than Block. Since Block is more valuable than Parry (you mitigate 1-2% more with identical stats; yes, I've tested this out on my character using *the exact same gear), the argument that WAR Parries more often because they don't have Block decreasing their chance to Parry (which, once again, Block is just what a Parry with a Shield is called so that's not even true) doesn't equate to an advantage of any kind.

At best, it's a semantic point that completely misses the actual intent of what's being discussed. At worst, it's demonstrative of a complete and utter inability to actually understand what's going on.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not agreeing with the OP's take that Parry is more valuable than Block. I'm just saying that if the OP is trying to lay out a complete breakdown of what mitigation PLD has available compared to what mitigation WAR has available, then nobody can make the claim that "they both have identical parry stats". Either we take "Parry" and "Block" to mean different things - so a PLD has slightly less chance to Parry but a large chance to Block, or we take them to mean the same thing - so a PLD has a *much* higher chance.

In a sense it really doesn't matter what we call it because it's going to result in the same level of mitigation for the PLD, but it does make the semantics of directly comparing what the two classes bring to the table a little trickier.

We can certainly take both Block and Parry as being the same thing if we boil it down to "amount of incoming damage mitigated passively". And I'm aware that the amount of damage mitigated by both scales with STR, but IIRC there are different chances to cause a shield block depending on the Shield that is equipped, whereas the chance to parry an attack with a weapon will remain the same regardless of the Shield type. That suggests to me that if we were to combine Block and Parry and take them as exactly the same thing for a PLD, we'd still need to separate it out again later on, because only part of our calculations will depend on what portion of that mitigation is influenced by the equipped Shield's Block Value.

I agree that to some extent it is a semantic point, and certainly that in practical terms PLD's (Block + Parry) will always beat WAR's (Parry)

Please don't think of my comments above as arguing with you. Instead picture me sitting in the audience with a bucket of popcorn, throwing out the odd heckle just to keep things interesting...
(I usually always end up rooting for the underdog, but I just cant see any way possible for WAR to win this one...)

[Derza]

The current data shows that it works out to 15% overall mitigation OF ALL INCOMING DAMAGE, AVERAGE. The average parry rate from ALL ATTACKS OVERALL is 25% or better.

Huh? How did you get this data? When you parry you take 22-25% less damage, and you can't parry magic attacks. to get a 15% overall damage reduction you would have to parry 60% of the time - and that is if the mob did no magic damage at all. If they are using magic attacks (you can't parry these) your parry chance would need to be well over 60% to come out with a 15% overall damage reduction... Man please think before you post this trash.

[Terabyt3]

What I don't get is people who complain that WARs self-heals don't scale with oncoming damage but then turn people away from doing things that would go toward self healing by saying if they don't put as much HP on their bar as possible they're doing it wrong.

If you want the self-heals to keep going up, you have to put in the stats and the gear to do that. It's not something that just happens. You get out of self healing what you put into it. =/

Even then your self heals are a fixed value. And your PRIME source of mitigation.

PLD's will always vary being % based rather than fixed.

The only problem with not having the HP pool if you increase the risk of dying before getting the chance to self heal. That's why wars have the bigger hp pool. We gotta take the hit BEFORE we mitigate it. Whereas PLD's mitigate it as it hits.

[Kitru]

Our parry is better because of higher STR. We mitigate a greater number, and even greater with berzerk active.

Berserk does nothing to STR. It affects attack power. Attack power does nothing to parry. Are you just *that* stupid? WAR has a whole *9* higher STR. If you honestly think there's a stat disparity between the two large enough to make anything *resembling* a difference, you're an idiot.

Parry procs on War more because our gear has more parry+ of it

WAR and PLD use the same gear. Axes might have more than swords, but no PLD uses a sword alone: they have shields will add up to the exact stat disparity between a 2h and 1h weapon.

AND when your chance to block activates the chance to parry is 0.

Except that Parry and Block are the exact same thing. Block is just what a Parry becomes when you're using a Shield. When you compare Block to Parry, PLD has the higher chance. If you're just comparing the word "Parry" to the word "Parry", it's only because you're an idiot that doesn't know anything about calculating mitigation.

We also dodge more. My math could be off on the total of 15% total mitigation but that's what it seems to work out to. Even if it's 6.25 with optimum stats that's a constant 6.25% damage reduction that scales with damage always.

Care to post anything to support this? Some raw data perhaps because you've demonstrated time and time again that you lack the basic math skills of the average elementary school student. Judging by your past performances, that dodge chance you're referring to is likely closer to 3%.

Another point is that if the mob doesn't resist it, our stun stops 5 seconds of total DPS every 30 seconds, so if a mob is doing 1000 DPS, that's 5000 damage reduced over 30 seconds which works out to 166HP/sec incoming damage completely negated.

Except that a PLD can do Shield Bash more often for the same exact duration. And there's nothing out there that actually matters to tank that is stun susceptible in anything *approaching* the way you describe. If you want to tank trash, fine, but I care about tanking *bosses*.

[Kitru]

Miniscule and Ignorable? Perhaps. But there is a slight difference...

Except that you're making the assumption that Parry is more valuable than Block. Since Block is more valuable than Parry (you mitigate 1-2% more with identical stats; yes, I've tested this out on my character using *the exact same gear), the argument that WAR Parries more often because they don't have Block decreasing their chance to Parry (which, once again, Block is just what a Parry with a Shield is called so that's not even true) doesn't equate to an advantage of any kind.

At best, it's a semantic point that completely misses the actual intent of what's being discussed. At worst, it's demonstrative of a complete and utter inability to actually understand what's going on.

[Derza]

Ah ha! i see why Lhun still thinks warriors are good enough... Hes still in full AF gear and all other items are whites/green weapon. Hes not even close to HM titan let a lone Coil. Hes still blindly assuming the dev team did a perfect job. While pulling random numbers out of his a$$ to show balances when faced with math that proves otherwise.

[HiirNoivl]

Even then your self heals are a fixed value. And your PRIME source of mitigation.

PLD's will always vary being % based rather than fixed.

The only problem with not having the HP pool if you increase the risk of dying before getting the chance to self heal. That's why wars have the bigger hp pool. We gotta take the hit BEFORE we mitigate it. Whereas PLD's mitigate it as it hits.

I increase my STR and VIT in sync, not separately. So as my HP pool goes up so does my mitigation. There's no downside to this.

[Terabyt3]

I increase my STR and VIT in sync, not separately. So as my HP pool goes up so does my mitigation. There's no downside to this.

except that damage output and parry mitigation are controlled by STR "walls". Unless your STR is a certain ammount you will not do more dmg.

Example you are at 200 STR. The next wall is 220.

If you put 19 points in str nothing will happen.

Put 1 more in and you reach that break point. your %parry increases as does your dmg output.


Even with what you are saying your MAIN way of mitigationg damage is self heals. Which is static and does not vary.

[Tanaya]

You can parry nearly all types of attacks against you.

Yes, you can parry nearly everything.

Except Magic.