Summoners useless in 24mans?

[silentwindfr]

i had said while the beta (on the french forum) that too much class had DoT and that will be a trouble on the endgame.
but well... it seems with ARR they have discover the joy of the DoT and place one (more on some class) in every class/jobs. it result in a futur huge trouble. actually we don't have a true debuffing class, summoner are DoT class, let's say they add thief as a debuffing dps, with limitation like this this class will be simply useless!

other point important, why put a limitation? memory trouble? (highly possible problem here) after all class like summoner need them dot for do all them damage. even the direct damage dealer like monk/dragoon need to put debuff/dot for be able to get all them dps.

[Vmage]

If they meet up for bosses. There'll be problems.

that's what crystal tower is designed like, at least according to the interviews about patch 2.1 they've been doing

the 3 parties split up, work their way through a wing, and meet up for a boss

...which will be a problem unless something is done about the debuff cap, in 8 mans my FC frequently hits 20 debuffs and we only run 1 summoner :\

[Hyrist]

I've yet to see convincing evidence that the 30 dot display is a limit on actual mechanics, rather than a simple display issue.

Additionally, this is high-load conjecture considering there may be many instances in which the full 24 man group may be split on multiple objectives to achieve goals, effectively limiting the focus issue.

These two factors alone hamstring arguments against Summoner, which seems to really just be the whipping boy for the forum community.

[shinros]

I and many others were criticized by so many people for saying that Summoner needs an overhaul and yet now it only comes to light with why I and others dropped the class at level 47(Others earlier or at 50) because we saw this issue before everyone else and noticed the big flaw in the cap and that will completely kill the Summoners DPS. So when is the Summoner class overhaul coming so that everything is focused on the summons instead of the Summoner.

Yup I agree but thats for another topic.

Oh Hyrist but it is an issue and depending on how they design the content most likely the three 3 groups will meet up for a boss and In my opinion debuff caps have been the bane of many dot classes in other mmo's. Back in the day people did not want warlocks in groups because of the debuff cap. Square just this please before or on release on the patch.

[Hyrist]

-snip-

Except:

1. There has been no proof presented of the debuff cap to begin with. It's being surmised visiually only as there is no accurate parser usage regarding DoTs.
2. There are MASSIVE presumptions being made that all Crystal Tower is, is a zerg.
4. There is absolutely zero consideration for adds in this circumstance. Bane hits all targets in range, making a Summoner's damage scale exponentially the larger the crowd becomes. A Debuff cap isn't going to matter in circumstances such as these because you're going to hit targets not capped.


There are typically squads of 3-5 monsters in an average dungeon engagement of 4 members. I can't speak for 8 member dungeons.

There are two methods of enemy scaling in this case, strength of monster, and number of monsters. Both will likely be utilized.

Giving a generous estimate of a large scale battle consisting of 10 monsters, there would need to be over 300 debuffs used total to eliminate a Summoners DoT usefulness. This is completely ignoring that they have a field DoT, pets, and direct damage skills.

It's feasibly impossible to eliminate their usefulness. Instead, their playstyle has to accommodate their contrasted playstyle to that of burst casters, meaning they attack off-focus targets, not primary targets.

And this is still all assuming there is a DoT cap, and that the 30 debuff limit simply isn't a display limitation.

[Kevee]

snip

While I have no proof, I know there is a debuff cap. I don't know the exact number. I don't know how people got this "30" number, all I know is that there is a hard cap.

1) See:

This is an issue I have been posting about for awhile.

Original thread which they moved/closed: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ially-24-mans.


New thread with a GM saying to post it "Here" but with no link attached: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-mob-can-have.

Summoner has an attack called "Fester" that, with each DoT of Bio/Bio II/Miasma present adds 100 potency. If you go to a big FATE like Odin or Behemoth, cast Bio/Bio II/Miasma and cast Fester. You will get "Fester has no effect." I have also seen it on Svara. Basically, any FATE boss with a lot of people attacking it.



2) It doesn't matter if the whole instance is 24 man or not. Some of it will be, guaranteed, otherwise why make it a 24-man instance? Any time there are 24 people, you may hit this debuff cap. That renders quite a few jobs useless.

4) Bane can only spread to 3 targets, so 4 targets total from Bane. Not to mention bane does nothing if DoTs are not already present.


3) Summoner is a DPS just like BLM, DRG, BRD, etc. It should be able to functionally attack the same targets. Even though DRG/BRD/MNK can't really functionally attack the target if they can't accept any more debuffs..

[Kantide]

I've yet to see convincing evidence that the 30 dot display is a limit on actual mechanics, rather than a simple display issue.

There is an actual limit. Ask any Summoner who has cast Fester and had it do 0 damage.

Also, people seem to be forgetting that debuffs fill this limit as well. Slow, Blind, STR down, Silence, Stun, Heavy, Resistance Down, etc. all are added in. That's 7 right there even if one of them may only be applied for 2 seconds, it has the potential to knock off a summoners 30s DoT based on when it was placed.

[Lithera]

As a DRG the one debuff I care about is my Disenbowel. Having that roll off the mon due to the cap would actually negatively effect me AND any other DRG or BRD. I can skip Phlebotomize as there are other abilities on GCD that will amount to nearly the same damage. Chaos Thrust is inevitable but by the time I hit that in rotation the SMN DoTs will be nearly due for reapply anyways and I could care less if the CT DoT is overwritten if it's by an equal or stronger DoT. I care about overall damage not my own.

[silentwindfr]

the dot represent 1/2 of the dps of the summoner. how i know since parseer are not accurate?
simple, use dot one by one for gather number from the screen.

at 45, bio, bio 2, miasma, hit each for around 50. with thunder (hit too around at 50) means with the 4, 200 per tick
- Garuda hit for around 100-110
- ruin/ruin2 hit for around 105-115

we can easily say, that the dps of the summoner will be divided by 2 if we only use the pet and the ruin/ruin2.
Fester will do 0 since at 24, the limit of the 30 debuff will make your debuff rarely be appliqued. (i did test on fight like odin, if your dot don't appear in the 30 debuff they are not on him)

the solution? take out the limit (other point for a better visibility of the DoT, your debuff must be placed in first.) or is as good than take out half of the dps from the summoner.

[Seraphi]

huh? Only 30? What do you mean? Summoners get Fester which increase the DoT dmg a ton if you have all 3 Bio, Bio2, Miasma on a target and you also have the AoE ability to spread Bio, Bio2 and Miasma all over every near by creature. SMN is a strong DPS and probably one of the highest in the game according to those people who use Parsers.

Yes, and if you've ever been to a FATE which caps out the DoT limit, you'll notice your Festers do crap damage because your DoTs frequently get pushed off. I believe that's what the OP is concerned about. Given that several classes have multiple DoT's/debuffs, it may become an issue.