Summoners useless in 24mans?

[Reika]

Yea, I remember doing Svara with all the people casting on it, none of my dots stick because of all the other dots and debuffs on it, and Fester doesn't do any damage because of it. I hope they do something about this before crystal tower hits. At some point, they are going to have to have fights where 24 people are attacking one target, or else crystal tower and any 24m content beyond it will get very boring very fast if it is just in reality 3 separate groups going their own separate way doing their own seperate things to open 1 door type deal.

Knowing SE they will come in with their generic and predictable response: "This is working as intended and we have no intention of changing it"

[Roaminggnome]

Ryuko I think your missing the point some people are making which is people will not want too many summoners in their group because of the limit.

[Ryuko]

Ryuko I think your missing the point some people are making which is people will not want too many summoners in their group because of the limit.

My point is... You don't NEED that many summoners in your group. As I said, this could be a measure to prevent class stacking.

Let's look at a typical 8 person party. For argument's sake, we'll have an equal distribution of classes (leaving out the arguments/bickering of who is the better tank/healer/caster/melee).

2 tanks (paladin+warrior)
2 healers (white mage+scholar)
4 dps (four of the following: dragoon/monk/black mage/summoner/bard)

Keep in mind that a LOT of classes share certain 'additional effects' that overwrite each other and affect diminishing returns. One good example is blind. I bring this up because summoners have Ruin II which applies this. If other classes use an effect that blinds, you will notice the diminishing returns and you will also notice their effect 'replace' yours. It is also important to remember that not every class will be attacking the same mob at the same time. Main tanks and off tanks often 'split up', effectively splitting their effects. Healers don't often cast much on a mob outside of the occasional Virus.

If you don't class stack, summoners really have nothing to worry about. YES, the 30 debuff limit should be changed and/or lifted... but like I said, even if you have one summoner per party in the three party 'alliance', that's only 12 'constant' debuffs from the SMN (assuming you use thunder, which you should), give or take a few for situations (namely virus although plenty of other mages will throw this up as needed because of the large cooldown... such as on Titan for MB). We are the class with the MOST debuffs by far, only three of which actually affect our fester burst damage.

Still... it seems almost silly to speculate because we don't know what will happen in 24-man dungeons. I can understand why they put a 'cap' on FATE mobs... too many debuffs and the mobs would die even faster than they already do, and that's already way too fast... those fights are a joke.

[Menubrea]

Snip

It's only a concern for larger scaled fights, like open world ones and the upcoming 24 man raid, not in 8 or 4 dungeons.

[Ryuko]

It's only a concern for larger scaled fights, like open world ones and the upcoming 24 man raid, not in 8 or 4 dungeons.

I know, and that's what I'm talking about.

If there is one summoner per 'raid' party, that's three summoners per raid... 12 total DoTs from all summoner (considering the typical four DoTs a summoner USUALLY keeps rolling on one target).

As I said... we don't know how this 'cap' will be changed/altered in Crystal Tower. It hasn't even been added yet. To be quite honest, I am not at all concerned about whether or not I will be wanted in a 24-man dungeon.

[Reika]

If you have 3 summoners, 3 dragoons, any other combination of 6 other dps, a warrior and a paladin, youll hit the debuff/dot cap on 1 monster considering yout dpsers are actually dpsing to thier full potential. 3 dragoons have 3 dots they can share, 1 taken from warrior. That brings it up to 21. Rage of halone debuff that is always going to be there 22. Disembowl 23, occasional super virus 25 (takes 2 debuff slots) eye for an eye debuff 26, now you have very few left for the combination of monk, bard, and blm for their dots and/or debuffs. I specifically mentioned the dragoons too because they have the 2nd most importance to keep their dots and debuff up.

Who are you going to tell not to do their full damage output? Your best bet would to not take more than 1 summoner or dragoon, but now the content becomes, as I said, exclusionary, and I personally dont want that crap happening again like in 1.0 ans xi.

As long as they do what they said about crystal tower, which is the 3 separate groups will go accomplish seperate objectives,meaning fighting seperate monsters, it will all be good.

[Malamasala]

Could still use some improvements on things like Odin Fate though. Or even it out, so only 20 melee attackers can do damage and then it caps out so all other melee people do 0 damage. Because it is kind of silly that events which focus on bringing a lot of people have a cap that prevents you from actually contributing.

[Esmian]

It'd be much easier if they cut out the limit on debuffs/dots but made it an option that you only see your own debuffs/dots on a target. Would cut out seeing the potentially huge number of icons filling up your screen as well as solving the issue with the large number of dots and debuffs spread across the classes.

I know they've mentioned before about the groups being split up but you know for certain that there will be at least one fight with a burn phase with all the party members attacking one target so you'll definitely be hitting this issue.

[Gabriel_Mourningwood]

If they meet up for bosses. There'll be problems. Paladin has 3/4 debuffs on a mob almost constantly, with another 3 depending on situation.

Flash, Scorn, Rage of Halone and Fracture will be up almost all the time. With Pacification/Stun/Silence being situational. One tank has just made more than 10% out of the total limit right there. Out of 24 people. This isn't going to work, assuming a full setup trying to down one boss.

Either content will have to be made such that alliances won't be hitting the same targets all the time, or the cap will have to be worked around somehow. If debuffs get overwritten, hrm, what to overwrite? That critical pacification? Maybe the stun - that won't be needed. Flash - tank can just take more damage right? If Summoners are going to be screwed, the entire alliance will be having issues with content. No having your Whm Aero for more damage. Maybe we'll get total immunity from all debuffs, so stun/flash/rage of halone/etc become moot points so they won't need to be applied.

It's not a whine, just a - seeing that if this is exactly as stated, then more than just summoners are going to be hurt by this.

[Vmage]

If they meet up for bosses. There'll be problems.

that's what crystal tower is designed like, at least according to the interviews about patch 2.1 they've been doing

the 3 parties split up, work their way through a wing, and meet up for a boss

...which will be a problem unless something is done about the debuff cap, in 8 mans my FC frequently hits 20 debuffs and we only run 1 summoner :\