Summoners useless in 24mans?

[NamanoNanaya]

I think it's clever, Summoner DPS Certainly needs to be a concern on the radar. I'm all for different styles of play, but throwing dots, and a pet, and essentially safe from 80%+ of all fight mechanics due to the ability of sitting back 40+ yards away from the boss (NOT REAL NUMBERS) Makes stacking them far too common and defeats the point of having other DPS as far as elitists are concerned. They need to be limited before they get out of control even further.
If this turns out to be true, then that's a clever way of ensuring that summoners are still a vital part of groups, but blacklisting other jobs because they can't ignore 80% of mechanics, or suffer real penalties for actually doing their jobs.

Time will tell!

[Yumad]

I think it's clever, Summoner DPS Certainly needs to be a concern on the radar. I'm all for different styles of play, but throwing dots, and a pet, and essentially safe from 80%+ of all fight mechanics due to the ability of sitting back 40+ yards away from the boss (NOT REAL NUMBERS) Makes stacking them far too common and defeats the point of having other DPS as far as elitists are concerned. They need to be limited before they get out of control even further.
If this turns out to be true, then that's a clever way of ensuring that summoners are still a vital part of groups, but blacklisting other jobs because they can't ignore 80% of mechanics, or suffer real penalties for actually doing their jobs.

This sounds like melee butthurt to me. Welcome to MMOs, melee dps is and has always been harder when fights are not designed to punish ranged, which is the majority outside of WoW and some of the newer fights in EQ2.

[Yumad]

Bloody 1k character cap.

By "elitists" do you mean real progression guilds or scrub pugs who want to overgear and stack the raid in their favour due to lack of skill? If you mean real progression guilds, you don't need to worry about that, it does not sound like you belong in one.

Why would you blame the players for doing the optimal path? That's what some people like to do, optimize. You complaining about being limited by your own choices or abilities and suggesting that THEY be restricted is trying to control someone else's life and gameplay because of your choices. They aren't controlling you, they are simply excluding you. You don't want to be excluded? You have the power to not be, choose to satisfy their requirements or make your own group.

[Felis]

24 man means everyone can only have 1.25 debuffs on enemy. And debuffs are not only dots. Dragoons have 2-3 debuffs pending fracture use. They also have a slow that applies a debuff so maybe 4. Many jobs have more than one debuff so a boss will be capped too easily in a 24 man environment.

It is 3 full parties.
Who said the all 3 parties need to fight against the same enemy?

[Ryuko]

I skimmed the first few pages but I haven't found an answer to this...

Is anyone sure that the DoTs are REALLY capped at 30? I mean, yes... there only 'thirty' available DoT/buff 'slots' in the UI for a boss. However, that could just be a limit on what's showing and NOT a limit on what can be put on the mob. For example... If you look at the 'party' list, you can only currently see up to FIVE buffs/HoTs/DoTs on a party member at a time. This is super frustrating as a healer because you can't see for SURE if someone has a debuff unless you target them separately. Perhaps the '30 limit' is visual only because the enemy target bar can only take up so much 'space' on your UI.

I could be wrong... and if I am, I would like to see some sort of official statement by SE. Perhaps when you try to apply a DoT over the 30 limit, it says "no effect?" I'm not sure but I think FATE parties are a really bad example to use... no one knows what is or isn't affecting a mob during a FATE party because there's no way to accurately detect what's going on.

Anyway, a Summoner will typically keep 4 DoTs up on a main target constantly, with the occasional Virus (counts as 2 debuffs for SMN), Blind (shares diminished returns with other classes) and the AoE debuff you actually have to run up to use. The ground effect counts as a 'buff' on you and not a debuff on the mob as far as UI is concerned.

I personally hate the way the current UI works for buffs/debuffs. Having the text be in 'green' for your effects really isn't enough when there is no rhyme or rhythm to what's on the target. I would love it if there were an option to put my effects first or last on the list, just so they are at least bunched together... Fortunately, it's gotten to a point where a SMN has 'memorized' when it would be the appropriate time to refresh DoTs anyway.

[Ronyx]

It is 3 full parties.
Who said the all 3 parties need to fight against the same enemy?

Right on those types of Raids there most likely be lots of enemies at once. Even in Boss fights. So some DPS will be busy killing adds. People are just making a deal out of this but is really not.

[rabbitzero]

It is 3 full parties.
Who said the all 3 parties need to fight against the same enemy?

Yoshi even said at TGS that there would be times the three parties would fight together and times they would go different routes through the raid. You can even guess that some fights would be more than one enemy, so i don't really see a problem here. I do wish it was easier to track dots of your own, and the cap was higher, but i don't see them doing this wrong.

[Nictuswolf]

He is talking about the limitations as to how many dots a target can have from all sources.

Do Svara as SMN, pretty easy to see the issue.

DoT target, wait 4 seconds, fester > little to no damage due to lack of DoTs.

[Reika]

Yea, I remember doing Svara with all the people casting on it, none of my dots stick because of all the other dots and debuffs on it, and Fester doesn't do any damage because of it. I hope they do something about this before crystal tower hits. At some point, they are going to have to have fights where 24 people are attacking one target, or else crystal tower and any 24m content beyond it will get very boring very fast if it is just in reality 3 separate groups going their own separate way doing their own seperate things to open 1 door type deal.

Knowing SE they will come in with their generic and predictable response: "This is working as intended and we have no intention of changing it"

[Jynx]

Is anyone sure that the DoTs are REALLY capped at 30?

Yes it is, it's very obvious when you use a summoner skill called "Fester" wich will only do damage if your characters DoT abillities on on the monster. Go to any popular fate like Svara a meaty mob with way more than 24 zerging it and you will be able to see the 30 status effect cap tick over.

When this happens cast Bio, Miasma, Bio II (All skill that will allow Fester to proc and do damage) You will promptly see "No effect" tick instead of damage because your DoT's have been overwritten by other characters.