Matsui's battle system information - Next week!

[Vesperia]

If I had to choose, I'd prefer they lean towards a more action-RPG type of battle system like Tera/Monster Hunter, but I guess we'll see what we're gonna be getting with the new battle system info next week.

I would like something similar to that also. I like what B&S did with their combat: you can still lock on to your target but locking onto your target doesn't ensure you will hit them. Although you can lock on, you can still attack out of range and there is therefore still the possibility that you will miss. There is less emphasis on luck/die roll and more emphasis on interaction with your enemy's model (proximity and position).

Something like TERA (which is more Hack n Slash / FPS) would seem out of place possibly. But I think something like B&S's system would be more fitting.

I don't like in FFXIV that I can only swing my sword if I am righ up in the mob's grill. I should be able to swing and miss if out of range.

[Physic]

Here's what I want to see when its all done over the next few updates.

- Classes to be unique, Conjurer's should have to pick whether they want to be a Black Mage or a White Mage, We don't need FFXI: SMN2.0 where you're only brought to the endgame event because you can cure people when we get more challenging content.

- Protect and Shell to last 30 minutes, All buff's are now auto-aoe.

- Stamina to either be removed or heavily modified so it doesn't hinder the speed of battle. I just think it slows down the battle pace way too much because you're waiting on it to refill to hit the next action.

- I would like to see an Aggro meter under the current targets HP BAR, 0-25% the bar is blue, 25-75% the bar is yellow, 75-100% you're about to get aggro and goes red.

- Abilities generate way to much aggro like Bloodbath, ferocity etc.

- Animation locks to be completely done away with. I like the sidestepping of certain tp moves but animation locking currently makes this a really bad mechanic.

- Active and passive mode done away with, seriously, its nothing but a slowdown and screws over abilities like "quickstride" by the time you go from active to passive 4-5 seconds is almost wasted. LNC's fleet of foot will have to be changed into a buff of some sort.

- Stats working, this just blows my mind they don't work correctly.

- DLVL becoming much more balanced, level difference is too overpowered in current combat.

This is basically what I'm expecting over the next few updates.

expecting? or wanting? because i never saw them mention anything about aggro monsters, and i think people might not like that idea.
Btw stats work, correctly, they just said its complicated. I did some testing and i see the past relationships roughly. but its pretty likely that they are going to alter stats in some way, they may take out stat allocation completely.

Active and passive mode is another thing i never saw them mentioning, they may choose to get rid of it, but i wouldnt expect it. And personally i dont think it would add much to the game if they did. btw if they wanted quickstride to not be effected by active and passive, it would be simpler to just make it a buff that doesnt require active mode, like all the gathering run speed skills. I think it was intended that you can choose to lose a few seconds, its faster than regular run speed even with your weapon drawn i believe.

[Physic]

If I had to choose, I'd prefer they lean towards a more action-RPG type of battle system like Tera/Monster Hunter, but I guess we'll see what we're gonna be getting with the new battle system info next week.

I cant see many changes involving auto attack leading to a more action rpg battle system. In fact the main reason people said they wanted auto attack was so they had less to do, and could talk to people more, doesnt really seem to work well with action oriented content.

auto attack really puts it into more of a simulation fight. Adjust stats and watch game. Of course they could minimilize the effect of auto attack make it like Aion, but aion had way more skills, and also had combos and short recasts. Its basically going to end up like FFXI, i think he even mentioned that in the chinese interview.

[Vesperia]

I cant see many changes involving auto attack leading to a more action rpg battle system. In fact the main reason people said they wanted auto attack was so they had less to do, and could talk to people more, doesnt really seem to work well with action oriented content.

auto attack really puts it into more of a simulation fight. Adjust stats and watch game. Of course they could minimilize the effect of auto attack make it like Aion, but aion had way more skills, and also had combos and short recasts. Its basically going to end up like FFXI, i think he even mentioned that in the chinese interview.

I expect it to turn out similar to FFXI also. But I would not want it so.

I just wonder why we even have a combat system if we are just going to let auto-attack do all the work.

[Physic]

I expect it to turn out similar to FFXI also. But I would not want it so.

I just wonder why we even have a combat system if we are just going to let auto-attack do all the work.

hmmm basically it seems like people who play this game are more into the simulation aspect of rpgs, rather than skill. They want to adjust stats via equipment and skills and watch the charachter play out the sim, with some management here and there, but not that often. Its more of an RTS thing but only controlling one player.

Thinking about the system they set into play right now, and even the Dlevel effect, i realized this game puts way more effect into your skill choice and use, in getting more effeciency. catching the reaction time abilities, knowing when to strike safely, positioning your self so you take less damage, choosing which of the many skills to use in certain situations, and which skills you will use at which time, since stamina makes each choice effect other choices. In high level play, the performance of one player with exact same gear as another player will vary drastically. But this is probably going to change.

[BruceyBruceyBangBang]

making the stat formulas more potent may or may not happen, but auto attack does not require or even suggest that they would have to do this. All you have to do with auto attack, is decide how much of your damage you expect auto attack to do as compared with regular attacks now, then divide the effect. If you decide people were able to get 200 dps on monster thier level with normal attacks before, and you want them to get 100 dps with auto attacks now, you just have to divide the damage formula by 2.

Im just saying there really is no need to drastically rework stat calculations effect for the sake of auto attack, they may do it, but its not really required, and isnt really linked to them shrinking the stat pool. They could just as easily increase the stat pool.

What you think is a good idea for balancing and what the actual calculations turn out to be are two separate things that much is evident.

Adjusting the stat calculations is required and the fact that you cannot see how shrinking the stat pools correlates with auto-attack shows that you alone do not understand. What was said was the stat pools are too large and stretched thin. Your diminishing results start at 110 onward which makes your stat modifiers viable even at 80. Players can divide their stats up evenly and only be marginally less stat wise than another player in the enhancements they give.

This is a problem and was said to be addressed with the battle system. Shrinking the pool, or as they put it, "simplifying the formulas" would make the stats more potent, but will leave you with choices to fit your play style. This is aside from skill. FFXIV, as of right now, is pretty easy to float through and doesn't separate the men from the boys. If you call skill timing your attacks and moving around mobs to avoid cone AOE, well, alright.

I think skill is a combination of figuring out builds and your idea of play strategy and skills. So do not think I'm totally on a different page than you.

Edit: Just caught this, but it's safe to rule out them INCREASING the stat pool. That would actually complicate the formulas even more. Please have an understand in what you're discussing before discussing it. It's really not much to ask.

[Physic]

What you think is a good idea for balancing and what the actual calculations turn out to be are two separate things that much is evident.

Adjusting the stat calculations is required and the fact that you cannot see how shrinking the stat pools correlates with auto-attack shows that you alone do not understand. What was said was the stat pools are too large and stretched thin. Your diminishing results start at 110 onward which makes your stat modifiers viable even at 80. Players can divide their stats up evenly and only be marginally less stat wise than another player in the enhancements they give.

This is a problem and was said to be addressed with the battle system. Shrinking the pool, or as they put it, "simplifying the formulas" would make the stats more potent, but will leave you with choices to fit your play style. This is aside from skill. FFXIV, as of right now, is pretty easy to float through and doesn't separate the men from the boys. If you call skill timing your attacks and moving around mobs to avoid cone AOE, well, alright.

I think skill is a combination of figuring out builds and your idea of play strategy and skills. So do not think I'm totally on a different page than you.

I am saying that most players who want auto attack seem to prefer the statistical manipulation IE stats gear skill choices etc with a few interjected reaction skills, like stun. Im not putting a value on that,

Im saying the current system revolves more about reaction and skill, and choosing when to do what. Compare this to ffxi, if you had someones account, and macros set, it would be fairly easy to tell them how to play, for a DD/tank extremely easy. Most of the planning went into your gear set ups, macroing, choice of subjobs.

This game has a bit of both, but i definately think they designed it skewed to skill choice and player interaction, rather than gear, most gear only gives you a modest boost, and what skills/traits combinations you choose, as well as how well you can take advantage of your jobs strengths is the dominant factor. Like i said, it would not be easy for me to explain my take on how to take advantage of pugs abilities in this game,

whereas in FFXI it was more about explaining gear choices, haste versus str and attack and dbl attack etc, but actually explaining battle; /assist build tp use best weapon skill repeat. This game involves positioning, stamina choices, short time buffs, more selection of abilities etc.

timing attacks to avoid cone, timing attacks to make best use of your buffs, timing your buffs and skills to make best use of your stamina at the right times, or have stamina available when you need to do a string of attacks or skills. figuring out when its best to do BR, managing your cooldowns to maximize your powers. Im not claiming its street fighter, but its way more complex than FFXI for melee/tanks anyhow in the sense of the skill it takes to do it well.

Im not using skill as a universal word for being good, im using skill as a word to describe having to react and use techniques and various abilities to a greater effect.
Planning and intellegience is more in the realms of what skills to use, and how usefull they are, even with the same knowledge different players are better at execution. I think some people would prefer more planning and intellegience and less execution, annnnd some peops just want easy mode but thats a different story.

also keep in mind im not talking about the easymode leves and behests we have now, im talking about real difficult fights, versus more complex mobs, and possibly groups of monsters. Back when i first played, and people didnt know everything about everything you had to learn leves, adapt to the mobs skills, and deal with multiple mobs at the same time. When exploring tam tara for exp, fighting high level bones, zombies, efts, eyes, pigs etc, (like +12-18 levels higher than you and the claiming system didnt block you on skill gain for aoe) you actually saw big differences in results using all your skills well.


and after that wall of text, im also saying i think they are going to take it more into a simulation type game for battle, and less on a skill based battle system. By making stats and gear more dominant, thats one step in that direction, by taking out actively choosing when to do everything, and most likely reducing the dominance of stamina, thats another step in that direction. So essentially as to what to expect with the battle system, probably a slower paced (not the speed of attacks, but the amount of qualitative input from the player) but more simulation and more overall planning of your charachters/stats/gear roles. As well as more rigid roles in combat.

But i could be wrong, they could come up with something crazy, but its not what i expect form what they have said.

[Irondude]

I saw the icon and thought I posted this. "I don't remember being awake at 5am..." This forum ain't big enough for two people with the same icon!

But seriously, thanks for the heads up Foxclon! (Told you guys SOMETHING was coming.)

LOL I did too Bayohne! i thought "man this dude just does not sleep"

[kukurumei]

I am saying that most players who want auto attack seem to prefer the statistical manipulation IE stats gear skill choices etc with a few interjected reaction skills, like stun. Im not putting a value on that,

Im saying the current system revolves more about reaction and skill, and choosing when to do what. Compare this to ffxi, if you had someones account, and macros set, it would be fairly easy to tell them how to play, for a DD/tank extremely easy. Most of the planning went into your gear set ups, macroing, choice of subjobs.

This game has a bit of both, but i definately think they designed it skewed to skill choice and player interaction, rather than gear, most gear only gives you a modest boost, and what skills/traits combinations you choose, as well as how well you can take advantage of your jobs strengths is the dominant factor. Like i said, it would not be easy for me to explain my take on how to take advantage of pugs abilities in this game,

whereas in FFXI it was more about explaining gear choices, haste versus str and attack and dbl attack etc, but actually explaining battle; /assist build tp use best weapon skill repeat. This game involves positioning, stamina choices, short time buffs, more selection of abilities etc.

timing attacks to avoid cone, timing attacks to make best use of your buffs, timing your buffs and skills to make best use of your stamina at the right times, or have stamina available when you need to do a string of attacks or skills. figuring out when its best to do BR, managing your cooldowns to maximize your powers. Im not claiming its street fighter, but its way more complex than FFXI for melee/tanks anyhow in the sense of the skill it takes to do it well.

Im not using skill as a universal word for being good, im using skill as a word to describe having to react and use techniques and various abilities to a greater effect.
Planning and intellegience is more in the realms of what skills to use, and how usefull they are, even with the same knowledge different players are better at execution. I think some people would prefer more planning and intellegience and less execution, annnnd some peops just want easy mode but thats a different story.

also keep in mind im not talking about the easymode leves and behests we have now, im talking about real difficult fights, versus more complex mobs, and possibly groups of monsters. Back when i first played, and people didnt know everything about everything you had to learn leves, adapt to the mobs skills, and deal with multiple mobs at the same time. When exploring tam tara for exp, fighting high level bones, zombies, efts, eyes, pigs etc, (like +12-18 levels higher than you and the claiming system didnt block you on skill gain for aoe) you actually saw big differences in results using all your skills well.


and after that wall of text, im also saying i think they are going to take it more into a simulation type game for battle, and less on a skill based battle system. By making stats and gear more dominant, thats one step in that direction, by taking out actively choosing when to do everything, and most likely reducing the dominance of stamina, thats another step in that direction. So essentially as to what to expect with the battle system, probably a slower paced (not the speed of attacks, but the amount of qualitative input from the player) but more simulation and more overall planning of your charachters/stats/gear roles. As well as more rigid roles in combat.

But i could be wrong, they could come up with something crazy, but its not what i expect form what they have said.

That's exactly the reason why FF14 battle system isn't working.

You are envisioning a full manual deluxe plate of tactical maneuvering. But in reality, you're just too stuck on l33t possibility where no one cares or writes scripts for.

The tactical alternative to "why bother" is supreme. In all your 360 tacticle decision and inputs nets you 100more hp, and 10 seconds shorter kill time. My 11111121 is "good enough". I have to heal 10 seconds later, but it beats repeating the alternative for 3 hours.

This is why people don't understand MMOs especially PvE high fantasy MMOs like FF. L33t is crap because the game is designed to be non competitive, friendly, and repetitive.

This isn't a fighting game where achieve maximum "high level" playing and constant "raising the bar" type fights. It's a MMO of repetitive adventuring. Until people get that, they will never understand why FF14 is depopulating into a ghost town.

Everything you explained won't work. Because not enough people will have the incentive to do that(not to mention it's no different if you're repeating it over and over anyway), and developers have no incentive to write monster scenarios for that. (In fact they can't. This isn't an action game, AI are dumb, and monsters have to be aplenty and long lasting).

This is why we're moving to a Auto-attack system and probably a lot of things to revolve around that.

We're not driving manual cars anymore because no one wants to do that for 8hrs a day-every day. Of course pre-determined Public transportation isn't efficient either so, that's why we have AT cars on the road.

[Duelle]

- Classes to be unique, Conjurer's should have to pick whether they want to be a Black Mage or a White Mage, We don't need FFXI: SMN2.0 where you're only brought to the endgame event because you can cure people when we get more challenging content.

The only way that type of play would die is if you entirely lock out damage-centered casters from cures. Even if you add penalties to non-healing casters and toss in a trait to add cure potency, all you'd end up with is the "accepted" builds for casters including that trait and still shafting them with cure duty.

I'm more partial to maintaining class flavor and accepting overlaps where reasonable. Jobs like Thief and Ninja could then technically be two different approaches to the same method. Thief being the guy that learns his dirty tricks on the streets while the Ninja could be the guy that was trained to do what he does. That also reduces the chances of fiacos like utsusemi repeating themselves while making both acceptable for a damage role (unlike XI where THF was shackled to the bad gimmick that was emnity control and NIN was taken in a completely different direction than intended).

- Protect and Shell to last 30 minutes, All buff's are now auto-aoe.

100% agree here.

- Stamina to either be removed or heavily modified so it doesn't hinder the speed of battle. I just think it slows down the battle pace way too much because you're waiting on it to refill to hit the next action.

I'm iffy on the topic of stamina, if only because I saw how haste was part of the arms race amongst melee classes in FFXI (store TP being the other part).

- Animation locks to be completely done away with. I like the sidestepping of certain tp moves but animation locking currently makes this a really bad mechanic.

This should have died with the new game engine. Animation locking was partly excused because of the PS2 limitations, but to see this again in a "next gen" MMO is disappointing.

- Active and passive mode done away with, seriously, its nothing but a slowdown and screws over abilities like "quickstride" by the time you go from active to passive 4-5 seconds is almost wasted. LNC's fleet of foot will have to be changed into a buff of some sort.

I agree on the transition from "weapons sheathed" to "in combat" needs to be streamlined.

Personally, I'm more curious to hear how class dynamics are going to be affected by the overhaul.

The concept of strategy worries me a bit, because in the context of encounters you'd need to add something beyond "stand in one spot and spam a certain weaponskill to trigger an incap". Of course, in Duelle Land that means boss mechanics and extra things to do during a fight (like a boss at the end of a Garlean Fortress that requires the off-tank to ride on a machine that suspiciously looks like magitek armor to assist the raid during the first two phases of the encounter), or the encounter itself reacting to your group composition (a boss doing certain things if you bring too many mage classes, something else if you bring too many melee, running in circles yelling "I AM SO CONFUSED" if you bring hybrids like Red Mages). The reason for my worries being that XI's encounter design was far from impressive.

I wouldn't want to see that applied to open world mobs, though. Can't really make every mob you decide to fight feel like a boss. Makes things kinda silly, IMO.