So i finished my PLD... After my WAR

[Churchill]

I just tank AK without Defiance, just sucks we can't do sub-10m runs anymore.

[Ramsey]

The math is all that really matters here. I've used some simple numbers for clarity's sake:

1000 DPS = 800 DPS to a PLD
1000 DPS = 1000 DPS to a WAR

800 HPS = 800 HPS to a PLD
800 HPS = 920 HPS to a WAR (assuming they have 5 stacks of wrath EVERY heal, in reality it would average out to more like 856 HPS)

Paladin is a more efficient (read: better) tank.


Analysis:

Right now Paladin is better whenever it is necessary. When it's not necessary, Warrior is better. This will always be true as long as warrior deals more damage and requires more healing. This is why you hear stories of people clearing turns in the coil with warriors, yet everyone else is throwing a shit fit about how "bad" warrior is. Choosing a warrior instead of a paladin tips the scales of your raid group, lowering its overall mitigation, making the load heavier on healers, but increasing overall damage, making the runs faster, or lightening the load on DPS checks.

This is also likely why the developers don't see much of a problem with the way warrior performs right now, they don't have the same issues of playing with pugs that don't know what they're doing. Now it is in fact their job to think about these things, and I'm sure they'll continue to analyze the situation. That being said, I do believe there may in fact be a problem in terms of the balance of mitigation lost vs. DPS gained when choosing a WAR over a PLD. I'm curious to see what the numbers look like and will do my own field testing once I have both relics.

But, and this is the most important part, even if the math is off right now, even if they do correct that, (A good place to start would be buffing the healing bonus on Defiance to at least 5% a stack) Paladin will still always be better in an underskilled or undergeared pug, undergeared or underskilled organized group, or when tackling new/unknown content, because PLD will give you more breathing room. (Exception: DPS check fights could see benefit from WAR.)

What does this mean? The community will always see warrior as the inferior tank on content deemed "difficult" and warrior as the superior tank on content deemed "farm-mode." The only possible way this could not be true, is if the two jobs were completely homogenized and had the exact same effective mitigation and DPS. At which point, any differences would be purely cosmetic.

One potential solution is to unbalance the DPS:mitigation equation in favor of warrior, I.E. have warriors do more damage for their mitigation lost than paladins mitigate for their damage lost. This might make the two jobs relatively even in the eyes of the average player, but Paladin would become the inferior job for the end-game elite, except in certain limited capacities.

Edit/Addendum:

I'm really going to have to see some numbers as far as PLD vs WAR dps, because in a vacuum (and admittedly on napkin math) it looks like Paladin might actually win in terms of potency/second. It's hard to take things like berserk into account, so warrior probably comes out on top, but it's going to be only a marginal difference. Thanks to PLD having two skills off the GCD, and Fight or Flight having a lower cooldown than unchained, despite having largely the same effect. It doesn't really matter that warrior has more "do damage buttons" if the GCD applies to all of them. This is unbalanced because paladin's innumerable "take less damage' buttons are all of course, off the GCD, and so are two of their attacks. An increased restoration buff to defiance and putting all wrath expending commands off the GCD might go a long way towards closing the divide.

[Giantbane]

So much anger, look at it like this. You knew how it was going to be back in beta, heck everyone did, even at those low levels you could see a difference that early on. I debated on playing a war over pally and after looking at my experiences i just couldn't see a warrior as being a valid boss tank with out having massive heals. So if you were in beta or read anything about the class it was already known so you really don't have any room to complain since you knew this about them from the start. I dont know if you just thought the world would change when you hit or got close to 50 or what but even at 35 you could tell a difference in the 2 tanks. Like i said earlier, you got an apple hoping it would taste like an orange and its not going to and if these changes are made to war as some of the posts on here it will pretty much remove the pally class totally. So its telling me its not about having a balance it just about wanting to be better then someone else....

It strikes me that PLD doesn't actually get better till Shield Oath (40) and then they pull away. Especially in the 30-40 range when WAR has defiance and PLD doesn't have shield oath yet. So I'm not sure what you could glean from both classes before that point.

The problem you seem to be worried about is that you think changes will "remove the pally class totally". But what do you think WARs are worried about at the end game right now? It seems that PLD is a much safer and easier option, not just for the tank but for the entire party. You're expecting other classes to make it harder on themselves by bringing you along. But that's ok with you because you play the favored class, is that it?

There aren't supposed to be apples and oranges within a single role. WAR & PLD are supposed to tank, and like I said, if one is performing the role substantially better than the other, there's a problem. You've already sort of acknowledged this.

[Kyzr]

People keep saying Warrior is heads over heels better in damage than Paladin. They're not. It's in the <5% range of damage.

WoW had a similar problem with Feral Druids for years. They didn't know how to balance high HP vs Mitigation. What they ended up finding out is that when you introduce fights that have dangerous levels of burst on a tank, a high HP tank will never be wanted on this fight. Eventually they had to introduce a stacking shield effect on Feral, just to make them competitive.

Want to know how to fix WAR?

Inner Beast needs to be a shield effect, and for more. 500% Shield Effect lasting 10-15s. This would be about a 1500 / 3500 shield depending on crit/berserk).
The 15% heal bonus needs to part of Defiance, not the Wrath stacks. Even with the above change, you would still want to hold your Wrath until you have Infuriate to replace it. Wasting Wrath stacks should be bad, not the norm.
We should be using WAR skills more often, or at least be given the chance to use it more. Make Wrath cap @3 stacks, with +3-4% crit per stack, so we're using WAR skills in the middle of rotations.
Storm's Path should apply a high potency regen effect not based on damage. Make it part of a long "A" to "B" rotation. I mean HIGH potency, like 300~ ticks over 18-24s.

This stuff sounds "OP", but because the GCD is 2.5s, we're not dying because the healers have to heal for 20% more, we're dying because healers have to heal us 20% more OFTEN, which isn't possible.

They'll have to make at least half of the above changes before I even think about coming back to WAR, and even then I'm likely to just stay on MNK.

[Xariann]

1000 DPS = 800 DPS to a PLD
...snip

Are you basing this on parses?

You aren't counting Inner Beast (which with Infuriate it's quite nice) and Blood Bath into that HPS calculation. And it's really not something you can parse because the only parser I know (FFXIV App) does not see them. Add also Second Wind.

It's probably still not enough to be on par with Paladins, but I saw ONE post from a healer here. What do other healers think?

As for DPS (more DPS = more healing), yes you HAVE to count Berserk, Unchained and if you picked it from Monk, Internal Release.

If you leave out a load of skills your maths are skewed. Getting Mantra might be worth looking into.

Paladin gets huge damage mitigation but we don't seem to ever take into consideration all of the healing aspects of Warrior.

[Kyzr]

Wait, what? A WAR with +10 iLevel is the same a PLD? How does a WAR ever faceroll then? When he's got the same gear? No, you just said he needs to have an entire tier better. So two tiers? A WAR "facerolls" a PLD when he has two tiers better gear? Well duh. And what exactly does he faceroll in? Damage? That's been debunked, it's less than 5%. In fact, I would be willing to bet that if a healer uses the 20% time saved NOT healing a WAR over a PLD, and spends it doing damage, that a PLD is a net GAIN in group damage. I'm almost positive this is true.

What you just said, means one thing: FCs pushing new content, will never take a WAR. Why would they? They can bring PLDs with newer gear, or a really geared PLD and let healers do more damage.

WARs are broken; We need your help, not your empty rhetoric.

[DukeGr]

What you just said, means one thing: FCs pushing new content, will never take a WAR. Why would they? They can bring PLDs with newer gear, or a really geared PLD and let healers do more damage.

WARs are broken; We need your help, not your empty rhetoric.

What i said applies only to bosses designed to be tanked with the PLD's dmg reduction skill in mind, the +10 ilvl's of gear compensate for not having that skill. At the moment for 95% of the content WAR is a better choice than PLD due to better aggro management and dps, that is for complete instances not just 1 boss in particular. Of course it all runs down to personal preferences and team play style. At the moment there is no way someone can say "WAR sux so i play PLD", both are cool and both can manage, theres no reason to reroll PLD if u like WAR just prepare abit better for that specific content.


Lastly WAR's do about 30%-40% more DPS than the average PLD if you use skills properly. This number is not from my head its from the parser of two equally geared tanks 1 PLD and 1 WAR tanking Hydra.

So no WAR's are not broken, they are actually pretty OP with good gear.

[Rios-Drakoon]

WAR is broken, thats how it is.

SE said once:

Paladin reduce incoming dmg (thats what he do)
Warrior conter incoming dmg with his selfheal (um, wuut? selfheal? 40-100 Heal per hit from Bloodbath? 100 Heal from Stormspath all 9sec? 900 Heal from Innerbeast, with some CD on we can also heal usself for 2000, but only all 2min)

Say wha you want, Selfheal from Warrior is just a bad joke.

But alot Paladin say "Warrior are just fine" they are scared,cuz IF (and i hope they will) buff Warrior, then People can say, Warrior or Paladin, doesnt matter, both tanks are good.

And then Paladin will get Trouble.

[oceanlord]

Lastly WAR's do about 30%-40% more DPS than the average PLD if you use skills properly. This number is not from my head its from the parser of two equally geared tanks 1 PLD and 1 WAR tanking Hydra.

So no WAR's are not broken, they are actually pretty OP with good gear.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post1321295

that paladin in the parser is either undergeared or just plain noob

[Kyzr]

What i said applies only to bosses designed to be tanked with the PLD's dmg reduction skill in mind, the +10 ilvl's of gear compensate for not having that skill. At the moment for 95% of the content WAR is a better choice than PLD due to better aggro management and dps, that is for complete instances not just 1 boss in particular. Of course it all runs down to personal preferences and team play style. At the moment there is no way someone can say "WAR sux so i play PLD", both are cool and both can manage, theres no reason to reroll PLD if u like WAR just prepare abit better for that specific content.


Lastly WAR's do about 30%-40% more DPS than the average PLD if you use skills properly. This number is not from my head its from the parser of two equally geared tanks 1 PLD and 1 WAR tanking Hydra.

So no WAR's are not broken, they are actually pretty OP with good gear.

There's nothing about this that's even remotely true. Not even a single word. The other thread has the actual math on it, but the damage difference between to two is <10%, and it's even smaller when WAR/PLD is paired. 30-40% MORE? You're insane.