Red Mage as possible new tank class

[Kitru]

So the consensus seems to be that Ninjas can be tanks but they probably shouldn't be tanks and that Red Mage has been completely forgotten.

The Ninja argument is relevant to the RDM discussion because it goes along with the question of whether a RDM *should* be a tank. Any class could feasibly be designed as a tank class, and I love thinking along this line; it's one of my favorite thought experiments. I came up with constructs for WoW where, with minimal modification, enhancement Shamans could have been perfectly effective tanks (have the mastery provide a different benefit if using a shield instead of a second weapon, allow the weapon enhancements to be used on shields, and the addition of a couple of tank talents since there were already plenty in the tree already). I did the same for Hunter/Warlock (turn Beastmaster/Demonology into tank trees with the pet and hunter being able to transfer total threat between each other on a ~20-30 sec CD; both shared the same hp pool and a few other changes). It's interesting to think about, but it's nowhere near anything that would realistically be added to the game because it doesn't really fit with the given theme of the class.

The same is true for Ninja and RDM. It's possible to come up with implementations of either wherein they could be made to be tanks. The issue is that it just doesn't fit with the given role: RDM was a melee fighter, but it was never a frontline fighter because it lacked the survivability. Making them tanks as their *only* role (which is what jobs are; FFXIV is a game where jobs have a single role; a *class* could have multiple, like the ACN, but, unless RDM is a class rather than a job, which is doubtful because BLM and WHM aren't) requires too much of a deviation from their core concept, just like it does with Ninja.

(For some reason my posts are limited to 1000 characters.)

Everyone's initial post is limited to 1000 characters. If you want to have a longer post, use the "Edit Post" to add what you need in order to break the limit (I generally do this by cutting, posting, editting, and then pasting).

[Sephirah]

Making them tanks as their *only* role (which is what jobs are; FFXIV is a game where jobs have a single role; a *class* could have multiple, like the ACN, but, unless RDM is a class rather than a job, which is doubtful because BLM and WHM aren't) requires too much of a deviation from their core concept, just like it does with Ninja.

If they did add it as a class instead of a job, it might be interesting to see what they could turn it into. Perhaps going 30 GLD 15 RDM would make a Mystic Knight for tanking, or RDM 30 and ARC 15 would be more the "Red Wizard" route.

There is also still the possibility of it being added as an "advanced" job (combining whm/blm), but so far that has only been confirmed as something they are considering.

[Kitru]

There is also still the possibility of it being added as an "advanced" job (combining whm/blm), but so far that has only been confirmed as something they are considering.

I still find the idea of an "advanced job" somewhat dubious, mainly because it either compounds the number of potential end options or implies that you're going to have *very* few real combinations. I also begs the question of how they would work, given that the existing jobs provide 5 abilities, and that's it, right now.

[Ruminate]

RDM was a melee fighter, but it was never a frontline fighter because it lacked the survivability.

They're frontline mages, not melee fighters. Non-MMO RDM meleed to conserve MP, not because their melee was good. FFXI RDMs were given the Mystic Knight's Spellblade, along with Refresh and Convert, because no one wanted RDM in groups. FFXI Mystic Knights were turned into tanks because Square shot themselves in the foot by giving Spellblade to RDM.

[Eremor]

Yeah they added on En-spells to RDM in XI, but you have to admit it fits the job, sword wielding magic user, why wouldn't they buff their weapon with magic? The problem with Mystic Knight is that it only does the one thing, it's not rounded out enough for a MMO job, in XI they gave it abilities that RDM already had (bar-spells and phalanx and some other enhancing magic) in order to round it out. As far as I'm concerned Rune Fencer was only made to appease RDM melee pushers without having to change RDM at all, but all they did was piss them off.

But that was XI and this is XIV, the two jobs certainly are similar and I wouldn't mind them both stemming from a single class, with RDM being more support focused and Mystic Knight being tank focused.

[Ruminate]

Yeah they added on En-spells to RDM in XI, but you have to admit it fits the job, sword wielding magic user, why wouldn't they buff their weapon with magic? The problem with Mystic Knight is that it only does the one thing, it's not rounded out enough for a MMO job, in XI they gave it abilities that RDM already had (bar-spells and phalanx and some other enhancing magic) in order to round it out. As far as I'm concerned Rune Fencer was only made to appease RDM melee pushers without having to change RDM at all, but all they did was piss them off.

But that was XI and this is XIV, the two jobs certainly are similar and I wouldn't mind them both stemming from a single class, with RDM being more support focused and Mystic Knight being tank focused.

Mystic Knights dealt very high damage. Thats rounded enough for an MMO class. Its not rounded enough for a tanking role, but thats because they were never great at survival to begin with.

Mystic knights and RDMs aren't really all that similar aside from the fact that they wield swords and cast magic-like effects. In most FF, the RDM's signature skill is Double Cast, because they primarily cast magic. In most FF, the Mystic Knight's signature skill is Spellblade, because they primarily swing their weapon.

[Kitru]

In most FF, the RDM's signature skill is Double Cast, because they primarily cast magic.

Well, the reason that they *need* something as strong as doublecast is because they have an, effectively, terrible spell list. To be able to compete with the other casters, they need some advantage beyond just having access to the weakest spells of both schools. Doublecast exists less as an extension/definition of their being a raw caster than as the ability for them to actually be *effective* when they choose to cast. It allows them to either throw out damage like an offensive caster, at a steep cost thanks to effectively doubling the mp cost, heal like a defensive caster, at a similarly steep cost, or toss out damage and healing in the same turn, which is something unique to them. They get to be effective by having a better economy of action to make up for lower potency actions.

I also wouldn't say that they primarily cast magic either. They've always used swords and have always dealt a fair deal of their damage through melee. They're JoATs. Saying that they're primarily casters when they're always equally effective at stabbing things, healing allies, and exploding enemies is a bit disingenuous. They're less effective at any of those aspects as any of the specialist classes, but they do all of them equally well.

It's because of this that it's most likely that they'll end up being DPS: melee and offensive magic sync up effectively for DPS, and defensive magic can easily be redone as support abilities. The economy of action that Doublecast provides could either be accomplished by having spells cast via melee attacks (i.e. action free casts) or having a CD that doubles spell speed for a short while. I would expect for the various en-element spells to be baseline for the class and stuff like Doublecast to be part of the Red Mage proper.

[Ruminate]

RDM melee damage was terrible, and their magic damage was even worse, even with Double Cast. Their melee damage outscales their magic damage because RDM are barred from obtaining the best magic, but not barred from wearing the best equipment. In FFV, I distinctly remember Dancers dealing more damage in general than RDM. Even the FFV BRD had its damage role niche by demolishing undead and dragons.

To be able to compete at all, non-MMO RDM were relegated to a role that utilized spells that didn't scale with stats. In other words, buffing and debuffs. Doublecast allowed them to throw out more buffs and debuffs sooner.

Some people hated how the FFXI RDM played in groups because they wanted them to be melee DPS to match their french musketeer look. Other people, like myself, hated how the FFXI RDM turned out because their only support ability of any value was Refresh, turning them into nothing more than Refresh bots.

[Duelle]

Some people hated how the FFXI RDM played in groups because they wanted them to be melee DPS to match their french musketeer look.

I was more upset at the inevitable bait and switch that was common with hybrid classes in EQ-era MMORPGs. You know, "look at this awesome job that uses swords and light armor and has access to more magic than a standard fighter!", followed by "guess what? you're at level cap and the stuff that drew you to the job is no longer valid! You're now refresh/haste/cure bot. Learn to like it or reroll LOL". Paladins in WoW were cheated the same way, which is why I get a little touchy on the subject of hybrids and RDM.

[Duelle]

Mystic Knights dealt very high damage. Thats rounded enough for an MMO class. Its not rounded enough for a tanking role, but thats because they were never great at survival to begin with.

魔法剣士/Mystic Knight was basically a black mage that cast their nukes through a sword; that was it. They were so one-dimensional that the concept was converted to sword enchanting and given to RDM in FFXI, which looking at spellswords and sword&magic archetypes, it makes sense. It's testimony to hybridity, not to mention it looks awesome as hell.

In most FF, the RDM's signature skill is Double Cast

Building RDM around double cast would be pointless because then you're obviously making up for a weak spell list. Some form of it may be acceptable (like my suggested "Double" ability), but even then I can admit you'd have PvP concerns over it (which should always be kept in mind because PvP is a part of this game).

The main thing about RDM in an MMORPG is that the melee and magic sides of the job cannot be treated separately like in the console FFs. The abilities have to mesh and combine into a greater whole in order to be a job that can function acceptably within the trinity. I've harped on this before, but outside of the console FF's, RDM's defining traits should be how they apply the stuff they borrowed from Fighter, Black Mage and White Mage. A BLM may use Fire to blow up a door into a room, where a RDM may use their weaker version of Fire to melt the lock. A Fighter can hit someone for really high physical damage, whereas a RDM may ensorcel their sword so that it does the expected inferior physical damage but also make up the difference through the damage by Enfire.