Red Mage as possible new tank class

[Ruminate]

Not really. If they're a melee support DPS job, which I would expect, the black magic and melee would be the effects of the attacks and the support functionality would be the equivalent of the white magic. They will, in all likelihood, be something like a melee Bard: TP DPS with 2-3 job abilities that allow them to provide some support and a few attacks that consume MP.

It's important to remember that FFXIV doesn't use the standard mechanical definitions of the classes (Red Mage always had a fuzzy mechanical definition anyways, since it was just "white + black magic" rather than anything truly unique). PLD, mechanically, was always a very durable melee/white magic class, but our PLD doesn't have any non-token white magic capabilities. The *theme* is present, but the previous mechanical construct isn't. Hell, Black Mages used to be the owners of most of the spells that SUM uses but those previous constructs were abandoned to give Summoners *something*.

The *theme* of Red Mage has always been a melee/magic hybrid. It was slightly more durable than the standard mage without ever really being as durable as a "true" melee, not to mention that it pretty much always lacked the strong support capabilities of a white mage and never had appreciable avoidance capabilities (that was always ninja/thief/monk). Honestly, for an avoidance/light armored tank, it would be a lot more likely to see Ninja than Red Mage. It's interesting to think up ways for Red Mage to be a tank class, but it's a stretch to make it a tank rather than the more easily approachable DPS/support construct.

The only "Knight"(localized as Paladin) in non-remake, non-MMO FF games that had white magic was in FF4. In every other FF, "Knights" were frontline fighters with high damage. Infact, "Knights" were the class upgrade to Warriors in the original FF1.

The RDM was a frontline fighter that could cast black and white magic. If the class was a frontline fighter in the previous FF, then they were durable. The fact that they could cast Cure, Regen, Slow, Stop, Protect, Shell, etc. actually gave them an edge in survivability over other frontline fighters.

[Stormsoul]

mmm, i dunno. if we're going to do something unexpected with FF classes and tanking i'd rather see Blue Mage done as a tank, rather than RDM. BLU at least has a history of being all about finding monsters with rare abilities, and having them melt your face off to learn them -- that's something you could build on for a tank class. RDM imo should be a melee DPS with a trait that lets them instacast spells (or dualcast them!) after they stack up a buff or on a random proc. RDM has never had the heaviest armor or shields, and has never really been known for evading or parrying stuff, so i don't really feel it has much to go on as a tank job.

i think the next tank we'll see would probably be SAM (ff5's SAM was pretty tanky with Shirahadori parrying a ton of hits for free). i can't see DRK being a tank as it's always been about sacrificing your HP to deal more damage. NIN could go either way i guess, one one hand it's always been a beast at evading hits, but on the other hand it's intended role has always been damage.

[Zheri]

The only "Knight"(localized as Paladin) in non-remake, non-MMO FF games that had white magic was in FF4. In every other FF, "Knights" were frontline fighters with high damage. Infact, "Knights" were the class upgrade to Warriors in the original FF1.

The RDM was a frontline fighter that could cast black and white magic. If the class was a frontline fighter in the previous FF, then they were durable. The fact that they could cast Cure, Regen, Slow, Stop, Protect, Shell, etc. actually gave them an edge in survivability over other frontline fighters.

Actually, in the original FF Fighter upgraded to Knight, which could use low level white magic. They were more durable than Master or Ninja, but did a little less damage.

[TouchandFeel]

Honestly, Fencer/Red Mage would most likely be a DPS class using a fusion of melee and black/white magic attacks.

The next tank class they add will, in all likelihood, be Dark Knight. Samurai could be a possible second.

I knew that a lot of people would lean in this direction with Red Mage being DPS and Dark Knight being the next possible tank class.
I get the reasoning behind thinking this, but I'm not really into that route because it just feels like the easy predictable one.

Having a more lightly armored nimble class that relies on magic to provide defense seems a lot more interesting to me and has more potential to feel truly different as a tank than just another heavily armored class that carries a big weapon.

Sure this isn't exactly inline with the more "classic" generalist role of Red Mages in previous FF games, but with how role based the classes are in FFXIV, being a generalist doesn't fit very well.

I personally would like to see the opposite of what you said would be most likely, Red Mages be added in as a magic based tanking class and Dark Knights be added in as a melee based AoE DPS class, going with scythes as their weapons like in FFXI.

[Sephirah]

I don't know where this mentality of "if you can't be the absolute best at something you're worthless" came from, but I really don't like it. Just like how warriors think their increased dps is worthless (even though it isn't)

I hope they add RDM, and I hope they keep the "jack of all trades, master of none" mentality. Are they the best tank, healer, or dps? No. But CAN they be a tank/healer/dps? YES. That is where the value comes in, in XI it didn't matter what my party needed, I was able to fill that role.

Edit, this may sound strange to anyone who has read my other posts about how I don't think anyone should be able to do anything, and I still think that's true, you should not be able to be a dps/healer/tank and be just as good at each of those as the class that makes that their main thing. And this should also not be something that every class has the option of doing, but if you do want that versitility, then having 1 class that is able to is totally fine, again just as long as they aren't the best at anything, because then you'd see parties of nothing but rdm, and that's just lame, lol.

[allluckys]

I rather rdm be a hybrid melee and caster dps with ws that increase the effectiveness of their next spell cast with unique arry of support spells mixed in to help the party. As for dk stick to the classic theme uses hp to deal high damage then drain back up hp. Soul eater on toggle and drain deals damage and heals depending on the difference of max hp and current hp up to a cap. Next tank should be nin though shadows should work like a block that effects spells as well.

[Dhex]

@ Dhex

I too would love to see more of a push for real support classes that add that much needed "little extra something" to parties and I could totally get behind that for Red Mages, but as it is right now Support doesn't have its own classification and gets just lumped in with DPS which I personally am not a fan of.

I've personally been a fan of the sort of wild-card classes in FF as well as games in general.

RDM needs to be utility, easily swapping from add tank to magic DPS debuffer, and Physical DPS - never ever support not after what happened in FFXI. I'd rage if they did make RDM fall into support.

[TouchandFeel]

RDM needs to be utility, easily swapping from add tank to magic DPS debuffer, and Physical DPS - never ever support not after what happened in FFXI. I'd rage if they did make RDM fall into support.

I sort of lumped utility and support into one group, but what you are suggesting is still inline with what I could see Red Mages fit into, being that other "little something extra" class.

Again the problem is what would they be classified as in the game? Tank because they can off-tank really well? DPS because they can DPS too? Support and Utility aren't currently a classification in the game and as I stated earlier if these were their own classification in the game I would completely support Red Mage being those, but since they aren't I tried to fit Red Mage into a classification that exists and could use a little more variety.
The whole support/utility class worked better in FFXI but FFXIV is very "Holy Trinity" role based and it seems that for a class to work in the game it has to be geared more towards one of those roles.

So to expound upon my Red Mage as a tank idea and show its more utility bent, here is what I was thinking.

Weapon would be a Rapier/Dueling Sword style of weapon with a Shield in the off-hand for added blocking defense.

They would essentially be able to swap roles between Main Tank and Off-Tank/DPS.

Main-Tank would rely on Magic Wards and buffs that the Red Mage would place on themselves that would help absorb and mitigate damage of different types such as (physical, elemental, etc.) and they would switch between the different wards depending on what the situation demands.

Off-Tank/DPS would rely on Debuffing enemies so that they take more damage from the parties attacks as well as buffs that increase the Red Mages damage output.

The Red Mage would only be able to be in one of these modes at a time, similar to PLD switching between Sword and Shield Oath.

All of their abilities should rely on MP more than TP to give them more of a mage feel.

Also, as I brought up earlier, it might be interesting if they had an ability that switched around MP and HP as a way to add another dimension of resource management during a fight.

[Kirea]

rdm...isn't really a sensible choice for a tank, especially if you follow them properly (not the butchering done in xi) rdm are a mix of white and black magic skills this provides them to fill a dual role as both dps and healer, but not a primary in either, I think rdm would be a good choice for major debuffs overall to make up for a lack of dps/healing

[TouchandFeel]

rdm...isn't really a sensible choice for a tank, especially if you follow them properly (not the butchering done in xi) rdm are a mix of white and black magic skills this provides them to fill a dual role as both dps and healer, but not a primary in either, I think rdm would be a good choice for major debuffs overall to make up for a lack of dps/healing

I have been "following" them as I have been playing the FF series since the very first one on NES.
I've always really liked Red Mages in the series, but I don't feel that a dual role style of class really works well with a Holy Trinity Role based MMO, hence why I tried to adjust what Red Mages have been in previous single-player iterations of the series into something that would work for this game while providing a very different take on a role that could use more variation.