Red Mage as possible new tank class

[Duelle]

I can't speculate on whether or not this was the original intention of Ninjas in 11, but after 10 years of it working that way, it's pretty apparent that they are fine with it.

The only reason it was left alone was because it took over the rest of the game. It would have taken them more work to fix defense and make NIN not mandatory for content that was even remotely challenging.

And just because they aren't blocking an attack with a shield does not mean they are any less capable of being a "tank".

Who said anything about blocking attacks with shields? By that logic I should oppose WAR tanking due to them using a two-handed axe, when I wholeheartedly support their cause and existence.

Here's five tanks, all of which mitigate damage rather than entirely avoid it:
Sword & Board tank with a slight advantage on single-target
Sword & board tank with a slight advantage in AoE
Two-handed tank with self-heals and active mitigation via a damage shield
One-handed tank with high armor, tons of HP and some dodge
Two-handed tank with procced parry increases and splits incoming damage into two - part instant, part DoT (this might be a good foundation for SAM if we were to want it as a tank)

Here's one I proposed:
Rapier-wielding tank focused on parrying and dodging with active mitigation through damage shields by spending their gant (yes, Mystic Knight)

There's probably more than can be deviced without having to turn to a mechanic that causes more trouble than it's worth.

[Fyreus]

If they want rdm to tank, then everyone who's ever played paladin in every mmo and in 1.0 will automatically reroll just in case they get a sword, shield (or dagger in the off hand slot to be more in line with real fencing from back in the day), self buffs, AND the ability to heal themselves.

Now if rdm was a reflect mitigation tank or able to do actual counters as mitigation then that would be pretty badass.

[Sephirah]

blah blah this class this class etc etc

You can get behind all those different ideas of "tanking" and yet the thought of a ninja using shadow clones to take hits enrages you? I don't understand...

[Kitru]

You can get behind all those different ideas of "tanking" and yet the thought of a ninja using shadow clones to take hits enrages you? I don't understand...

The thought of a "ninja" being given the role of drawing as much attention to itself as possible and taking damage in the stead of its party members enrages me. The only reason that people have even the slightest inclination towards ninjas being tanks is because, as previously mentioned, the devs made a mistake in FFXI that the players ran with as part of their metagame so that the devs couldn't correct it without completely altering said metagame.

I have no issue with an avoidance tank. The problem is that Ninja *should not* be an avoidance tank. It should be a DPS with some baseline avoidance functionality. Monk has self heals; Ninja has avoidance. Hell, common consensus is that Ninja should be a job based off of Thief and, if it's the baseline job for Thief, which it most likely *would* be, unless you believe that *Thief* should be a tank job, it makes no sense for Ninja to be so.

[Ruminate]

I've been hearing "ninjas aren't supposed to be tanks in FFXI because the devs said so" since FFXI was released in NA, but no one ever comes up with a source. I've come to the conclusion this is just one of those things that have become the "truth" because its been repeated so many times.

Ninjas having the attention of the enemy, and then causing their attacks to hit inanimate objects after disappearing and reappearing somewhere else, is very common in japanese media. Its not that farfetched for them to turn ninjas into tanks in an MMO.

Anyways, i hope the people that raged when the devs turned BRDs into DPS aren't the same ones advocating RDMs to be turned into DPS. Both jobs were bottom of the barrel at dealing damage in the old-school games. Even a WHM was a better damage dealer because of Holy.

[Duelle]

You can get behind all those different ideas of "tanking" and yet the thought of a ninja using shadow clones to take hits enrages you? I don't understand...

Now you're being purposely obtuse.

Ok, we'll go with that. Mechanics that entirely avoid damage create the conundrum of a class that is OP and UP at the same time. OP when they're shrugging off spells and attacks that would turn any other melee combatant to mincemeat while UP when said attacks connect and they only have paper-thin defenses with which to mitigate.

This is why "avoidance tanks" generally don't work or oust other "styles" of tanking, and why developer teams whose heads are not up their own asses will stay as far away as possible from them.

This being said, the only aspect of utsusemi I would even think of borrowing would be the charge mechanic, which would at that point be no different than the old prot warrior Shield Block ability (12 second cooldown, guaranteed 3 blocks).

Ninja tanking is iconoclastic. Ninja attack from the shadows and are best at doing things unnoticed. In concept they're not the center of attention in a battle, which is why them tanking is so jarring. Utsusemi as a tanking mechanic is broken because in the tanking game the tank that takes no damage will always beat the tank that does take damage, no matter how good they are at reducing said damage. I hope that clears things up.

I have no issue with an avoidance tank. The problem is that Ninja *should not* be an avoidance tank. It should be a DPS with some baseline avoidance functionality. Monk has self heals; Ninja has avoidance. Hell, common consensus is that Ninja should be a job based off of Thief and, if it's the baseline job for Thief, which it most likely *would* be, unless you believe that *Thief* should be a tank job, it makes no sense for Ninja to be so.

I would take a different approach for THF and NIN. Pugilist is more likely to sprout a tank than Rogue/Scout would, IMO.

Rogue

Highwaymen, assassins and thugs all fall under the label of the rogue. Where the upstanding gladiators, marauders and fencers of Eorzea can battle their opponents face to face, rogues prefer to remain inconspicuous during fights until they find an opportunity to deliver deadly and effective blows to their enemies.

To the untrained eye, this may seem as a random and unrefined combat style. In reality, there is a method to the madness created by the rogue, from swiftly sidestepping around enemies' attacks to disabling them with quick tricks before landing a critical blow to the enemy's weak point. And while some individuals have moved on to more honest fields of work, the training undergone to master this style seldom fades and even proves useful where a direct approach may be prone to failure.

Concept: Front line combatant that relies on guile and agility to outmaneuver their foes. Capable of staggering and disabling their enemies for short periods of time.

Mechanics: Rogue's primary weapon is the stiletto knife and kunai. They can dual wield and rely on placing status marks on their foes to maximize their damage. Their attacks also gain a small bonus when attacking from behind the target enemy.

Sample abilities
- Quick Strike: Deals melee damage to enemy.
- Puncture: Deals weapon damage and places the debuff Hemorrhage on the target.
-- Hemorrhage: 15 second duration. Increases damage taken from your attacks by X%.
- Shark Bite: Stab and slice the enemy. Combo => Quick Strike: Increases Skill Speed for 20 seconds.
- Evisceration: 5-hit weapon skill. Deals bonus damage from behind the target. Combo => Shark Bite: X% critical hit chance per hit.
- Dirty Kick: Stuns enemy for 4 seconds.
- Shiv: Attack with your off-hand weapon. Combo => Quick Strike: Recover X TP.
- Knife Throw: Throw a knife at the target enemy.

Notes:
- While I can't think of any clever names for TP refund abilities, I did want the emphasis for Rogue to be recovering TP in between their combos in order to keep up with their DPS flow.
- Though not illustrated here, a good approach to Rogue would be quick depletion but quick recovery of TP. This would also emphasize Rogue gameplay to be more about skillful use of rotations.
- Hemorrhage is an example of a type of ability I would like to see for Rogue and Thief; abilities that increase damage taken from your attacks, encouraging the rogue to maintain a rotation of sorts where their overall DPS will keep things like Hemo in mind.
- No rogue is complete without a stun or disable in their arsenal. Dirty Kick could be renamed something else, as it might prove ineffective against female enemies and certain monsters. XD

-----------------------------------

Thief

The legendary Thieves' Guild has remained a topic of controversy within political circles in Eorzea and the authoritative entities under their employ. The guild's own existence is often called into question, as none within the Brass Blades, the Knights of the Barracuda or the Woodwailers have been able to delve into the web of intrigue and shadows cast by this organization in the last decade. Even today the guild's motives and goals are shrouded in mystery, but those unfortunate to find a calling card from the guild know the truth behind the individuals associated with it.

Some see these Thieves as folk heroes that will steal from wealthy despots and share the spoils with the downtrodden (which has made their legend that much more popular in places like Uldah). Others see them as daring treasure hunters that utilize their finely-honed skills to discover secrets lost to ages long past. Regardless of their reputation, there is no question to the level of skill these individuals possess, exchanging durability and strength for nimbleness and quick hands. Of course, the sleight of hand that makes it easy to pick a pocket can also be used to inflict quick and deadly wounds, and woe to those who allow a Thief to get behind them.

Concept: Melee combatant that deals maximum damage from behind their target. Can Steal from enemies, ranging from items to buffs of the particular foe being fought.

Mechanics: Building on the burst damage windows native to the Rogue class, Thieves can steal temporary items for quick use from their enemies as well as buffs.

Sample abilities
- Steal Item: Steals a "dusty" item from the enemy. Is replaced by Use Spoils when successful. The stolen item is of poor quality and will break/vanish after 15 seconds. Success rate is determined by melee accuracy rating.
- Use Spoils: Use the item stolen from the enemy.
- Throat Stab: Deals damage to enemy with a chance to critically hit if performed from behind the target. Combo => Shark Bite: Places the debuff Exploit Weakness on the target.
--- Exploit Weakness: All attacks made on the enemy have a chance to deal increased damage. 20 second duration.
- Aura Steal: Steal a beneficial effect from target enemy. Success rate is determined by melee accuracy rating.
- Viper Bite: Deals weapon damage to target and poisons them for 15 seconds. Combo => Quick Strike: for every VB poison tick, you recover X TP.

Notes

- Steal Item came about when I looked at some interesting mobs from WoW. Mobs that could steal your weapon from you. While this was a clever way to disarm your character, I did like the concept enough. Of course, THF in FFXIV would fight more than enemies that used weapons, so the idea evolved into Steal Item. Examples of temporary items you'd get from Steal Item include Dusty Potions, Dusty Grenades, Dusty Poison Bombs, and Dusty Brew (random positive effect on you when used). The idea is you'd steal from the enemy and have to use the item right away or within the 15 seconds allowed before the item breaks/vanishes.
- Exploit Weakness is in an iffy spot. I could suggest it affect attacks from all party/alliance members, but then the bonus damage would have to be nerfed for balance purposes. If it affects only attacks from the THF, the bonus can be hefty but may give way to PvP concerns.
- Most of you who have played FFXI probably hate me for mentioning Aura Steal, as the ability was mostly useless and a waste of a merit ability. The main issue is that Aura Steal was tied to Steal, which in itself is horrible seeing how terribly low Steal accuracy was (not to mention the asinine conditions needed for Aura Steal to proc). If it worked more like a melee range Spellsteal with its own cooldown and determined by accuracy rating, you would have a very useful ability in hand. It would also mean that you could design bosses with buffs that can be dispelled or stolen to help the raid win.
- All Stiletto Knives past a certain level can only be equipped by a Rogue or THF.

-----------------------------------

Ninja

It is said that the style employed by rogues and brigands is a bastardization of the bigger tradition known as Ninjutsu; the art of swift shadows and silent strikes. Indeed, there have been tales of common criminals who found a greater calling and trained in this shadowy art in order to serve their true purpose and shed the traces of their old lives. In some cases, former criminals became respected warriors to those who knew of their actions.

Unlike most melee fighters, Ninja do not shy away from the idea of opening distance with their enemies, and at times do so only to catch their enemy by surprise when they quickly close the gap and return to the offensive. Running from a ninja can be seen as futile between the shuriken and jutsu that can reach a foe where the precise strikes of their kunai cannot.

Concept: Melee and ranged fighter that can open and close gaps with foes. Where melee is not an option, the ninja employs throwing skills and jutsu to damage their foes.

Mechanics: Equipping the Ninja crystal renames and changes certain abilities. Renamed abilities have an elemental alignment split between Fire, Water, Wind and Lightning. Using one of these abilities on an enemy places a "charge" on that enemy of that element, allowing up to three charges to be placed on an enemy (any attack after that replaces the oldest charge put on the enemy). Depending on what charges have been applied to the enemy, the ability Jutsu will have a different effect on the enemy.

Sample renamed abilities

Rin: Replaces Quick Strike. Builds one Fire Charge
Retsu: Replaces Puncture. Builds one lightning charge
Teki: Replaces Shiv. Builds one water charge
Fuuma: Replaces Knife Throw. Reduced TP cost. Builds one wind charge

Sample Jutsu

Katon: Requires 3 fire charges. Fire damage and defense down.
Fuuton: Requires 3 wind charges. Knock back target enemy.
Raiton: 3 lightning charges. Applies a DoT on target enemy.
Suiton: 3 water charges. Applies Weight on target enemy.
Ikazuchi: 2 water charges, 1 lightning charge. Stun
Kurayami: 2 wind charges, 1 fire charge. Blindness/Accuracy Down

Sample abilities

- Jutsu: Unleashes an ability on the enemy depending on what charges have been applied on them. Attack Jutsu (Katon, Raiton) have a range of 15 yalms. Utility Jutsu (Fuuton, Ikazuchi, Suiton, Kurayami) require melee range.
- Utsusemi: leap backwards 15 yalms from your current position, leaving a decoy that vanishes after 2 seconds. 60% of your total enmity disappears when the decoy vanishes.
- Kaze to tomoni: Teleport behind your target.
- Oborome: transfer charges from your current target to another enemy

Notes

- This is more a rough template of what to aim for. A flexible fighter that can go in and out of melee and do damage. If we were to do a percentage split, NIN would have 30% ranged attacks (not including Jutsu) and 70% melee attacks. They'd be able to do more than a WAR or a DRG during air phases or when a mob is purposely placed out of range during a fight, but not by much.
- The charge system's intention is make it so that the player has to think ahead as far as what abilities and what rotation they want to use. I'm still on the fence over whether the renamed abilities get to keep their combo properties or not. Not sure what NIN enthusiasts want on that end.
- I originally thought of giving NIN access to all 6 elements, but that would make an already cluttered ability bar even moreso.
- Utsusemi in this case is a gap opener and an aggro dump. The gap opener part being crucial since it would be useful if they get ganged up on by several enemies in PvE and PvP.
- Yes, I hate blink tanking and how utsusemi worked in FFXI. Why do you ask?
- NIN would obviously focus on using kunai.

I've been hearing "ninjas aren't supposed to be tanks in FFXI because the devs said so" since FFXI was released in NA, but no one ever comes up with a source. I've come to the conclusion this is just one of those things that have become the "truth" because its been repeated so many times.

It was mentioned at one of the fanfest Q&As. Paraphrasing, they said they didn't intend Ninja to be a tank, but felt it was okay for players to use them as such. As I said, they were pretty much forced to say this because by that point in time Utsusemi use had been ingrained into the playerbase and the devs had to design content around it. XI's devs were afraid of angering players more than anything else, which is why where any other dev team (even laid back guys like Cryptic) would have hotfixed Utsusemi, they simply let it be and continue to fester in-game. Also why RDM soloing was never nerfed and then used as an excuse to never fix the job.

Anyways, i hope the people that raged when the devs turned BRDs into DPS aren't the same ones advocating RDMs to be turned into DPS.

I can assure you that this is the case. I was fine with BRD being turned to DPS because I knew it had to go under heals or DPS to fit the model set by the trinity. It also got rid of any opportunity for them to turn into princesses again, which is an instant positive.

[Eremor]

So the consensus seems to be that Ninjas can be tanks but they probably shouldn't be tanks and that Red Mage has been completely forgotten.

Maybe we can get the thread back on topic by discussing whether or not Red Mage can and should be a tank.

Personally I don't care much either way. I believe that Red Mage very well could be a tank job. In XI I once spent 30 minutes meat-tanking an IT troll with my RDM just to prove I could, that really has no bearing on XIV, but it solidifies my perspective of RDM being a durable job.

In XIV RDM could be an MP tank, consuming MP to defend against attacks. Either actively (through casting defensive buffs) or passively (perhaps via a mana shield ability taking damage recieved as mp damage).

[Eremor]

I would not be averse to Red Mage not being a tank, assuming it did not then stem from Gladiator. I very much enjoy playing support role jobs and could see RDM again filling this role, though hopefully with more aptitude this time.

I can also see Red Mage as a DPS role, though this would be my least preferred iteration. It could use powerful en-spells to deal melee damage and combo between weaponskills and casted spells.

Bottom line: I don't really care how Red Mage is implemented as long as it has a clearly defined role and is capable of filling it respectably.

(For some reason my posts are limited to 1000 characters.)

[Kitru]

So the consensus seems to be that Ninjas can be tanks but they probably shouldn't be tanks and that Red Mage has been completely forgotten.

The Ninja argument is relevant to the RDM discussion because it goes along with the question of whether a RDM *should* be a tank. Any class could feasibly be designed as a tank class, and I love thinking along this line; it's one of my favorite thought experiments. I came up with constructs for WoW where, with minimal modification, enhancement Shamans could have been perfectly effective tanks (have the mastery provide a different benefit if using a shield instead of a second weapon, allow the weapon enhancements to be used on shields, and the addition of a couple of tank talents since there were already plenty in the tree already). I did the same for Hunter/Warlock (turn Beastmaster/Demonology into tank trees with the pet and hunter being able to transfer total threat between each other on a ~20-30 sec CD; both shared the same hp pool and a few other changes). It's interesting to think about, but it's nowhere near anything that would realistically be added to the game because it doesn't really fit with the given theme of the class.

The same is true for Ninja and RDM. It's possible to come up with implementations of either wherein they could be made to be tanks. The issue is that it just doesn't fit with the given role: RDM was a melee fighter, but it was never a frontline fighter because it lacked the survivability. Making them tanks as their *only* role (which is what jobs are; FFXIV is a game where jobs have a single role; a *class* could have multiple, like the ACN, but, unless RDM is a class rather than a job, which is doubtful because BLM and WHM aren't) requires too much of a deviation from their core concept, just like it does with Ninja.

(For some reason my posts are limited to 1000 characters.)

Everyone's initial post is limited to 1000 characters. If you want to have a longer post, use the "Edit Post" to add what you need in order to break the limit (I generally do this by cutting, posting, editting, and then pasting).

[Sephirah]

Making them tanks as their *only* role (which is what jobs are; FFXIV is a game where jobs have a single role; a *class* could have multiple, like the ACN, but, unless RDM is a class rather than a job, which is doubtful because BLM and WHM aren't) requires too much of a deviation from their core concept, just like it does with Ninja.

If they did add it as a class instead of a job, it might be interesting to see what they could turn it into. Perhaps going 30 GLD 15 RDM would make a Mystic Knight for tanking, or RDM 30 and ARC 15 would be more the "Red Wizard" route.

There is also still the possibility of it being added as an "advanced" job (combining whm/blm), but so far that has only been confirmed as something they are considering.