Warriors - How to fix our damage mitigation

[Kitru]

Kindly forward me to this analysis.

It's in this very thread. Not like it's hard to find.

[Jahaudant]

Looking through 16 pages of "WAR cant do anything, signed Kitru" doesn't rank highly on my to-do list.

[HiirNoivl]

So you're saying that the only time that a WAR has any advantage over a PAL is if the healer is completely and utterly ignoring the tank? That sounds a lot like soloing. It also sounds like complete and utter bullshit for any kind of tanking situation because any time that mitigation would actually *matter*, you expect to have a healer around to actually pop you back up. Arguing that WAR somehow has an advantage thanks to selfheals that don't even actually provide a real mitigation advantage of any kind is just naive. You're specifically trying to concoct a scenario where a WAR has an advantage when that scenario only occurs when someone screws up massively or you specifically try to put yourself in that situation.

This is what I don't understand about this discussion. The only time I've been one shotted as a WAR have been in situations where I would have been one shotted as a PLD. (Barring Hallowed Ground of course) The amount of damage that you guys say that PLD can take with no problems is way overrated. Even with Rampart and Sentinel and a Shield, I have no recourse but to put up my shield and pray that my WHM is ready. At least with WAR, I know that even if my WHM is NOT ready, it's not the end of the world, I'll just heal myself.

As a PLD, if a WHM is not ready to heal me, I'm dead in the next shot. I have less HP and even with mitigation there's no second chance if for some reason the healers are interrupted. It happens frequently in tanking situations and that's why I like WAR so much. So what if I just took a big hit? I heal for half of it. If I take another hit, I'll heal that as well. I have the same survivability as a PLD, plus more damage.

Except that it's not. PAL mitigation is exactly what it is. WAR self healing is what gets drastically overblown. Yes, it's nice, but it in no way makes up for the 8.7% increased external healing requirements and lack of a shield. PLD simply requires less external healing than a WAR does. It's not even up for debate. The only reason you'd still be hanging on to this is if you somehow want to alter reality to accommodate your preconceived notions rather than changing your viewpoint to account for reality. At that point, you're not interested in the truth; you're interested in spreading your own delusions.

That Shield only blocks some damage. WAR heals all damage. If anything relying on your shield to help you only helps some of the time. If you want increased block rate, your block effectiveness on your shield goes down a lot. If you want more effective blocks, than your block rate goes down a lot. Whereas, my Axe will heal for a lot in every circumstance so long as its buffed by abilities that should always be on cooldown.

Except that, based upon both math that's been done several times and your own admission earlier in this very post that I'm quoting, PAL and WAR have the exact same damage. Unless you want to claim that somehow stuff dies faster to a WAR than a PAL for reasons *other* than damage dealt (maybe they deal damage to themselves out of pity?), you're making no sense *whatsoever*. You can't even maintain internal logic within your *own posts*.

Theorycrafting is just that theory. Your math doesn't pan out in my reality. In my reality, my Inner Beast heals for way more and way more often than your math. For me, I play in real time, I see real results.

If it doesn't match your math, that's not my problem is it?

[oceanlord]

Looking through 16 pages of "WAR cant do anything, signed Kitru" doesn't rank highly on my to-do list.

lol man you looks so retarded judging from this reply

[Ahlen]

Looking through 16 pages of "WAR cant do anything, signed Kitru" doesn't rank highly on my to-do list.

This is like...the textbook definition of a strawman argument.

Bravo.

[Tronic]

Looking through 16 pages of "WAR cant do anything, signed Kitru" doesn't rank highly on my to-do list.

Page 5, middle.

[Kitru]

This is what I don't understand about this discussion. The only time I've been one shotted as a WAR have been in situations where I would have been one shotted as a PLD.

Actually, by saying this, it's pretty apparently that you just don't understand the discussion at all. PLD *doesn't* have a one-shot disparity with WAR. 25% increased max hp is effectively the same as the 20% decrease in damage taken that a PLD gets. Any attack that one shots one will one shot the other. All damage against either of them amounts to the same percentage of max hp lost. The disparity is in the amount of external healing required (which you seem to be incapable of actually understanding). WAR self heals do not make up for the 8.7% disparity in healing required and, comically enough, that actually stands up in both practice *and* theory. I wonder why...

So what if I just took a big hit? I heal for half of it. If I take another hit, I'll heal that as well.

Except that you won't. You'd recover *maybe* half to one-third of the damage, assuming you get a crit *and* you have multiple DPS CDs active, by using Inner Beast. You'd then have to burn Infuriate to prevent yourself from losing the 15% +healing that is effectively required as a WAR. For the second hit, you'd burn Inner Beast again, for the same amount, once again recovering either half to one-third of said hit, but then you'd be out of those self healing resources and require 15% more healing than a PLD while not being able to do the same thing for another 90 seconds (because you have to wait until you get a DPS cd up again in order to get anywhere near decent heals with Inner Beast). You're shooting yourself in the foot time and time again, which is the *problem* with the self heals that you constantly bring up as if they were the panacea for every situation. They're not because you simply don't have them *often* enough.

Your entire argument is that WAR is great when your healer is an idiot and the tank isn't getting any heals for an extended period of time. Why the hell would you *ever* need to argue that? You might as well just say that tanks are supposed to be entirely self-sufficient and that healers exist only to provide raid healing.

I have the same survivability as a PLD, plus more damage.

Except that you don't have more damage. Seriously. We've gone over this. A WAR, properly played, has no better damage than a PAL, properly played. The fact that you don't have PALs using Fight or Flight like they're supposed to is the fault of the player, not the class, and acting as if balance were designed around players being idiots rather than having reasonable level of competency is simply naive.

That Shield only blocks some damage. WAR heals all damage.

And not taking damage is better than healing damage. It's a trade off.

Whereas, my Axe will heal for a lot in every circumstance so long as its buffed by abilities that should always be on cooldown.

Except that, even if you're using said abilities that buff Inner Beast on CD, you're never going to have 100% uptime. Inner Beast is only an effect self-heal every 60-90 seconds. A Shield is effective *at all times*. Uptime matters.

Your math doesn't pan out in my reality.

Your reality is colored entirely by your own preconceived notions. You act as if Inner Beast is *always* up and *always* heals for 25% of your max hp. It isn't. It's up, at that level, once every 90 seconds. It's up at a pitiful level once every 20 seconds.

You're entirely incapable of understanding the theory because you're completely incapable of actually looking at reality without altering it to fit your own views. You're not going to be the one that notices whether you require more healing or not and, as such, you're completely ignorant of any difference in performance. You only pay attention to your own damage and, as such, have no idea what you're comparing your own damage to in order to make an educated assessment of comparative performance. You just say "I WAR! I tank good! I heal self! I break things!" without having *any* ability to actually make a comparative assessment.

You can talk about WAR all you want but, if you want to compare PLD to WAR, which is what's is being done here because balance is a comparative assessment, you've readily demonstrated that you're completely unprepared to do so. Your entire argument is that WAR is a viable class to run through content. Yes, it is. You'll not find me arguing against that. The error you make is in extrapolating "viable" into "balanced", which is completely and totally facetious.

[HiirNoivl]

The disparity is in the amount of external healing required (which you seem to be incapable of actually understanding).

That is an issue related directly with VIT stacking.

how many heals does it take to fill the HP of a PLD with 5500 HP when he gets hit with something that hits him? Once.

How many heals does it take to fill the HP of a VIT Stacked, STR starved WAR that has 8000 when he gets hit with the same thing and cures himself? Infinity plus 1!

The urge to heal and heal and heal on WAR comes from the fact that WARs are not self curing for enough when they have a huge pool of HP.

Vitality stacking, without STR supplementing, puts the weight of the mitigation on the WHMs. Which is the wrong thing to do. When you have a smaller pool of HP, your self cures cure for a higher percentage of your HP and your WHM only has to spend 1 cure to fill you up.

Except that you won't. You'd recover *maybe* half to one-third of the damage, assuming you get a crit *and* you have multiple DPS CDs active, by using Inner Beast.

I Crit a lot. Critical Hit Rate Materia and Accessories increase my Critical Hit Rate by a measure unseen in other classes simply by virtue of the bonuses granted by Wrath and Defiance. Even when i don't try, when I parse I get a regular 15% critical hit rate. You'd think that I would only get that much by keeping Wrath V up on a constant basis and having Internal Release up on a constant basis. But the reality is, I only use Internal Release if Berserk is down and I don't hold Wrath V. Even the calculator over at Dancing Mad says that I should have 11% Critical Hit Rate at a maximum! So why is my Critical Hit rate so high? Why is it not Less than 10%? Hiir Noivl does not hold on the Wrath V. She doesn't use her Internal Release a whole lot. So what gives?

I'll leave that for you brainier people to figure out.

Except that, even if you're using said abilities that buff Inner Beast on CD, you're never going to have 100% uptime. Inner Beast is only an effect self-heal every 60-90 seconds. A Shield is effective *at all times*. Uptime matters.

That's weird because I'm clocked to hit Wrath V every 12-15 seconds... But I must own some sort of Time machine. I'm curious as to what your definition of an "effective" self heal is. As far as I'm concerned, if it lands, it's effective at curing me to from 1100 to 2900. At what point do those numbers become ineffective?

[Hachiko]

Kindly forward me to this analysis.

Here is mine. But I have WAR slightly higher because I wasn't counting Storm's Eye for the PLD.

http://www.reddit.com/r/FFXIVTC/comm...dps_pld_v_war/

This is 100% false
make two identical characters one warrior and one gladiator at lvl 1
Weathered Axe with 150 potency attack does 9-10 Damage
Weathered Sword with 150 potency attack does 6-7 Damage
tested on lvl 1 lady bug

Both have a physical damage of 5, so clearly the damage on weapons is not IDENTICAL or there would not be a 30% discrepancy, it seems damage is calculated based off the auto-attack damage when using abilities not the physical damage listed.

These numbers are right, but the analysis is not right. IIRC the Class starts out with a 1-2 attack power difference, and I can't remember if they have different determination.

You can see it's not true that damage is calculated off of weapon attack by using a high level character and doing the math.

A 150 potency attack is going to be 1.5 * your "base" damage. So to get an estimate of your auto attack damage, divide your Fast Blade damage / 1.5. Then multiply it by the normalization factor: Weapon speed / 3. This will return your auto attack damage, or a reasonable estimate. This sort of works for lvl 1 characters but doesn't work great because their dmg is so low. Fast Blade = 7 dmg / 1.5 * 2 / 3 = 3.1 or 6/1.5 * 2/3 = 2.6. This returns your auto attack damage.

If potency attacks were modifying your auto attack damage without normalization, these formulas wouldn't work, and the damage would be different.

I think this pretty well proves that damage is normalized.

[Kitru]

That is an issue related directly with VIT stacking.

No, it's not. It's an issue directly related to Defiance. Defiance provides only 15% +healing. Inner Beast, even when used optimally along with all of a WAR's other self healing, only effectively break even with 15%. The fact that WAR only gets 15% +healing means that there is an 8.7% required healing disparity.

You've yet to prove that Inner Beast provides *any* more than a break even, over time, with 5 stacks Defiance. In fact, there's a *lot* of evidence that shows that, over time, it's a net loss. To actually be equal with a PLD, a WAR would need to be able to generate more 9% of the total output of the healers in your group on a constant basis *on top of what is already accomplished with Inner Beast and Bloodbath*: the existing 9% would be required to equalize the 15% +healing with the 25% needed and the additional quantity on top of that is required to break even with block chance.