Warriors - How to fix our damage mitigation

[Kitru]

Exactly.............. *sigh* That's what I've been trying to tell you.

You're just all about reversing your position aren't you? You explicitly said that WAR does 3x the damage of a PAL. Are you saying that you were completely and utterly wrong now that you've been confronted with math?

You completely reverse your position every time someone contradicts you with math and then behave as if that was *always* your position when it's the exact opposite. You could at least *try* to maintain some dignity by admitting to the obvious.

Are you buffing your Inner Beast?

Yes, I do. The issue is that you cannot *always* buff it. If you always wait to buff it, you'll have it up once every 90 seconds. You *cannot* claim that Inner Beast is somehow amazing when it only ever is *decent* once every 90 seconds. You will *not* get a 1700 Inner Beast every 30 seconds, which is your own number. You will get it every 90 seconds. If you compare Inner Beast to the *other* 90 sec CDs, it's friggin' terrible.

I shouldn't have to stand up here and be the one to prove this.

You're not proving *anything* except that you have no idea what you're talking about. You're spinning in circles trying to justify your mathematically incorrect viewpoints and changing what you say every time you say something.

How can you sit here and say that WAR doesn't do much more DPS than PLD, that it's Self heals don't matter, and that it has almost no survivability when we're both doing the same content successfully and you have more STR?

Are you reading *anything* that I'm saying or just trying to create a strawman in a vain attempt to make yourself look slightly less stupid than you've succeeded in doing thus far?

I've explicitly proven that a WAR and PAL do, effectively, the same amount of damage, if not giving a *slight* edge to PAL.

I've never said that WAR self heals don't matter. They do. They do not, however, matter enough to offset the explicit mitigation disparity between PAL and WAR. The only thing that the normal self heals offset is PAL shield. The only thing that Inner Beast does is provide access to a decent 60-90 second CD that pales in comparison to the PAL CDs.

I've never said that a WAR has "no survivability". It does. It has *inferior* survivability compared to a PAL in numerous ways for numerous reasons with no actual advantages gained for the loss. WAR does effectively the same or slightly lower damage and requires more healing over time while having an inferior CD suite. WAR is, explicitly, a worse tank than PAL. It's not even up for debate any more. This is not the same as saying that you *cannot* run content on a WAR. WARs have been shown to complete all of the content that a PAL can. However, it takes more from both the party and the player for a WAR to complete said content than for a PAL to do so. PAL is both simpler to play *and* more effective. That's not balance.

A DPS increase isn't going to be balanced either since tanks aren't there for DPS; they're there to eat hits and the amount of DPS required to bring a WAR to equality with a PAL would require a WAR to hit as hard as a full on DPS.

It's also not as if it would be that hard to fix the existing issues with WAR: put a 10% passive increased healing on Defiance, fix Foresight so that it actually acts as a *real* tank CD, get rid of Storm's Path and put the self healing on Butcher's Block (so that you actually benefit from the self healing combo), and fix Steel Cyclone and Unleashed so that, rather than being completely worthless DPS increases that reduce a tank's survivability for an, at best, marginal increase in damage, they provide the explicit mitigation needs that are required (like having Unleashed consume Wrath stacks to provide 30% DR for 15 seconds and Steel Cyclone give you an absorb shield equal to the total damage dealt to all targets).

The reason that I play my WAR, knowing that it's worse than PAL, is because I *enjoy* playing WAR more. I've got PAL at 50, and it's boring as hell. WAR is fun. So I play it. It doesn't mean that the class doesn't have problems nor does it mean that it doesn't need to be fixed.

[Hachiko]

I've explicitly proven that a WAR and PAL do, effectively, the same amount of damage, if not giving a *slight* edge to PAL.

I agree with everything else you said, but in Shield Oath a PLD will be slightly lower in DPS than a WAR in defiance, but in Sword Oath a PLD will be doing more damage than a WAR out of defiance.

I think the funniest thing about WAR is they have all of this grandstanding. 2 damage dealing cooldowns! That's almost as many as a DPS class. Yet they all come at a huge cost (5 second pacification, 5 wrath stacks). And when you really look at them they're both like a 3-5% dps increase overall. Not to mention the fact that Unchained does nothing to buff Inner Beast damage either. Of course that's only available if you unchained + Infuriate anyway. Which is really too many cooldowns for a single heal.

That's sort of off the point. But yeah, WAR is ~8-16% higher in DPS than PLD if both are in their tank stance. PLD is higher out of tank stance.

[Kitru]

But yeah, WAR is ~8-16% higher in DPS than PLD if both are in their tank stance. PLD is higher out of tank stance.

I just did the math for *in* tank stance. It's a slight edge to PAL, and I've got *no clue* where you got the 8-16% number from.

[Kunkka]

I agree with everything else you said, but in Shield Oath a PLD will be slightly lower in DPS than a WAR in defiance, but in Sword Oath a PLD will be doing more damage than a WAR out of defiance.

.....

That's sort of off the point. But yeah, WAR is ~8-16% higher in DPS than PLD if both are in their tank stance. PLD is higher out of tank stance.

I'd disagree that PLD has higher DPS than warrior if both are out of tank stance. Maim is good and PLD has no corollary.

Using DPS as a gauge can be misleading. While, on average, the difference between WAR and PLD tanking dps is negligible, the burst potential warrior has is unrivaled. In just over 20 seconds, a warrior has the potential to put out 6k damage if they pop every cooldown. Not really all that useful in most scenarios but it's nice to be able to down titan heart with 2 dps down.

[mcfuzzi]

Didn't it used to provide a shield back in one of the beta's? If so what was the reason it got changed. Even if they made using the same math it would be pretty cool, you could potentially give yourself a 1-2k stoneskin every time it was up.(just using the numbers i have seen floating in this thread, I,m only 27 so no idea what ib really does damage wise)

<edit> I fail at spelling

[Kitru]

I'd disagree that PLD has higher DPS than warrior if both are out of tank stance. Maim is good and PLD has no corollary.

Actually, PAL does have a corollary. In fact, it has 2: Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within. WAR Fracture provides 300 potency every 30 seconds (100 immediate + 10 tick of 20 potency). Circle of Scorn is on a 25 second CD and provides 250 potency. Spirits Within is on a 30 second CD and, as a DPS, should always be 300 potency. Both Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within are off GCD, so they can be used without hindering anything else.

Now, if you want me to do the math (whee!)...

It's pretty much the same numbers as the tank stance stuff with a couple changes: WAR no longer has a .75 modifier and PAL loses the .8 modifier. On top of that, PAL gets some bonus potency in the form of Sword Oath and Spirits Within is used at max hp (since DPS doesn't take it to the face). Baseline potency per GCD of an autoattack is 83.33 (auto-attack / ((damage * delay) / GCD)). Sword Oath provides an additional 50 potency to each of those, such that PAL auto-attack is 133.33 additional potency. Bring in the previous formulas modified for the given values (using the Fracture math for WARs):

WAR:
(213.85 * 1.0556 + 83.33 * 1.11) * 1.2 / .9 = 424.31

PAL:
(203.3 + 25 + 25 + 133.33) * 1.1 = 425.29

PAL (with WAR present):
(203.3 + 25 + 25 + 133.33) * 1.1 / .9 = 472.54

So a PAL does either 100.2% of what a WAR does or 111.37% while in their DPS set ups. PAL is explicitly better, but it's not by a massive amount when you get down to it.

[Ahlen]

DoT stuff.

Also can't fracture be cross classed by paladin? So they get ALL THREE?

[Kitru]

Also can't fracture be cross classed by paladin? So they get ALL THREE?

The additional version of Fracture only has an 18 second duration, which reduces the effective potency from 300 to 220 while also increasing the GCD consumption. It's a *very* slight DPS increase to use it. So small that it's effectively pointless to bring it up.

[Hachiko]

I just did the math for *in* tank stance. It's a slight edge to PAL, and I've got *no clue* where you got the 8-16% number from.

I've done the math too. In tank stance a PLD will be at ~295 Potency, while a WAR will be ~312 Potency, without counting Berserk, Unchained, Internal Release, or Inner Beast. Without any of that, WAR has ~6% lead. If you add those things in, and use them on cooldown you can extend the lead to 18% or higher, but it comes at a high cost to the WAR and isn't realistic. I just made a (long) post on Reddit about it, I'd be happy to link it. (Note that I also considered PLD using fight or flight on Cooldown).

It's pretty much the same numbers as the tank stance stuff with a couple changes: WAR no longer has a .75 modifier and PAL loses the .8 modifier. On top of that, PAL gets some bonus potency in the form of Sword Oath. Baseline potency per GCD of an autoattack is 83.33 (auto-attack / ((damage * delay) / GCD)). Sword Oath provides an additional 50 potency to each of those, such that PAL auto-attack is 133.33 additional potency. Bring in the previous formulas modified for the given values (using the Fracture math for WARs):

WAR:
(213.85 + 83.33)*1.2 * 1.0556 / .9 = 418.27

PAL:
(203.3 + 25 + 20.8 + 133.33) * 1.05 = 401.55

PAL (with WAR present):
(203.3 + 25 + 20.8 + 133.33) * 1.05 / .9 = 446.17

So a PAL does either 96% of what a WAR does or 106.6% while in their DPS stances. Once again, we're talking about what is effectively no difference (balanced within 5% is balanced).

This is slightly off. First, both circle of Scorn and Spirits Within work out to 25 Potency per 2.5, so I don't know where 20.8 comes from.

Second, you're not normalizing sword oath and instead adding 50 potency to the auto attacks which you've normalized to 2.5 seconds. Using Curtana as an example, that means an additional 50 potency attack every 2.32 seconds, not every 2.5.

So Sword Oath will contribute ~53.9 potency per 2.5 second global.

This puts the PLD (solo) calculation at:

203.33 + 53.9 + 25 + 25 + 83.333 = 390.563

With Fight or Flight used on Cooldown, it works out to 429.619, which is already higher than the WAR before you add in Storm's Eye for the PLD. But with Internal Release and Berserk used on CD for the WAR they would slightly overtake the PLD, but still be lower than a PLD in a situation where a warrior is present and using storm's eye.

I'm not sure why you were multiplying by 1.05 (Fight or Flight is a 10% buff, averaged out).

[Kitru]

I just made a (long) post on Reddit about it, I'd be happy to link it.

If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to see how/where our math deviates. My math is in this very thread.