Warriors - How to fix our damage mitigation

[HiirNoivl]

First off, WAR and PAL weapons both do the same amount of damage so there is no equipment disparity; it's all based off of abilities.

Exactly.............. *sigh* That's what I've been trying to tell you.

Secondly, if you can *regularly* manage a 1700-2800 Inner Beast, I will eat my shoe. The only way you're getting those numbers is by boosting it *heavily* with CDs and scoring a critical hit, none of which are even remotely close to reliable, not to mention that, because you're waiting for a CD to be up, it might as well be the one you're saving Infuriate to recover from. Hell, that's *exactly* how I use my Inner Beast.

That's what you're supposed to do! Yes I can manage a regular 1700.... Geez, and it's not hard. You tell me "You can't do that!" Have you even TRIED? That's what you're supposed to do!

Yes I do parse, yes I do practice. Yes that makes all the difference.

Are you buffing your Inner Beast? That's my biggest question. The lowest I get on Inner Beast is probably 1100 because I NEVER do a naked inner beast, but I regularly hit 1700. I'm dead serious. Particularly on single target bosses.

I shouldn't have to stand up here and be the one to prove this. I don't even put on all my stats into STR. If you do put all your attribute points into STR, why in the world aren't you getting bigger numbers than me? That's a question I have.

How can you sit here and say that WAR doesn't do much more DPS than PLD, that it's Self heals don't matter, and that it has almost no survivability when we're both doing the same content successfully and you have more STR?

I don't know where WARs are breaking down. At this point I'm at a loss. I can go out and I can parse and I can get all the big numbers and I can come here and post them, like I have. and people cry, "Lucky shot!" or "Cherry picker! Make a FRAPS video!"

This is what I don't get People put points into STR. Why? I'm serious why are you putting point into this stat?. Vit is mostly the way to go. I feel that most people go for STR because they see ooo I can parry more damage. YES but your parry has a chance to occur. If you don't parry that hit or dodge it you don't have a shield so what keeps you for being alive. Your defence and your HP, bigger health pool means that you can take a lot more hits. Yes you are spikier then a PLD but that is always been the case for non shield tanks in any MMO your healers just need to work around it. Use your CD correctly and just let the healers figure out how to heal you.

STR would be the way to go if you had a Parry chance of 100%. But it's not so you want to rely on defence and health pool to keep you alive.

No, it's not because of Parry, it's because of self Heals. Even with 20 points into STR, so long as I have VIT accessories I still have more HP than PLDs by about 1000 and I can self heal myself just fine. The problem with dumping all my stuff into VIT is that I couldn't self heal and I relied too much on Mages and it prolonged the fight and was a stress on people. Also, it hurt enmity I was gaining from my DPS abilities a bit.

That extra 1000 HP cost a lot in the long run and really didn't help a lot. It doesn't matter if you have 8000 HP as a WAR. If you can't fill that HP pool you have no survivability.

[Ondesvin]

That's what you're supposed to do! Yes I can manage a regular 1700.... Geez, and it's not hard. You tell me "You can't do that!" Have you even TRIED? That's what you're supposed to do!

1700 and you never use IB without a buff?, hmm do you even read what you write? can you be more full of Shit, if you never use IB when its not buffed you hardly ever use it and then we are back to not the 20 sec IB but 40 sec IB uses 1700 hp every 40 sec (2 crit IBs from IS and 1 no crit from Berserk). cant you see your logic are wrong, so god damn wrong, you are just throwing BS out to inflate something that dont make warriors more viable... god man i allmost think you are one of Devs, that made this mess to begin with...

[Kitru]

Exactly.............. *sigh* That's what I've been trying to tell you.

You're just all about reversing your position aren't you? You explicitly said that WAR does 3x the damage of a PAL. Are you saying that you were completely and utterly wrong now that you've been confronted with math?

You completely reverse your position every time someone contradicts you with math and then behave as if that was *always* your position when it's the exact opposite. You could at least *try* to maintain some dignity by admitting to the obvious.

Are you buffing your Inner Beast?

Yes, I do. The issue is that you cannot *always* buff it. If you always wait to buff it, you'll have it up once every 90 seconds. You *cannot* claim that Inner Beast is somehow amazing when it only ever is *decent* once every 90 seconds. You will *not* get a 1700 Inner Beast every 30 seconds, which is your own number. You will get it every 90 seconds. If you compare Inner Beast to the *other* 90 sec CDs, it's friggin' terrible.

I shouldn't have to stand up here and be the one to prove this.

You're not proving *anything* except that you have no idea what you're talking about. You're spinning in circles trying to justify your mathematically incorrect viewpoints and changing what you say every time you say something.

How can you sit here and say that WAR doesn't do much more DPS than PLD, that it's Self heals don't matter, and that it has almost no survivability when we're both doing the same content successfully and you have more STR?

Are you reading *anything* that I'm saying or just trying to create a strawman in a vain attempt to make yourself look slightly less stupid than you've succeeded in doing thus far?

I've explicitly proven that a WAR and PAL do, effectively, the same amount of damage, if not giving a *slight* edge to PAL.

I've never said that WAR self heals don't matter. They do. They do not, however, matter enough to offset the explicit mitigation disparity between PAL and WAR. The only thing that the normal self heals offset is PAL shield. The only thing that Inner Beast does is provide access to a decent 60-90 second CD that pales in comparison to the PAL CDs.

I've never said that a WAR has "no survivability". It does. It has *inferior* survivability compared to a PAL in numerous ways for numerous reasons with no actual advantages gained for the loss. WAR does effectively the same or slightly lower damage and requires more healing over time while having an inferior CD suite. WAR is, explicitly, a worse tank than PAL. It's not even up for debate any more. This is not the same as saying that you *cannot* run content on a WAR. WARs have been shown to complete all of the content that a PAL can. However, it takes more from both the party and the player for a WAR to complete said content than for a PAL to do so. PAL is both simpler to play *and* more effective. That's not balance.

A DPS increase isn't going to be balanced either since tanks aren't there for DPS; they're there to eat hits and the amount of DPS required to bring a WAR to equality with a PAL would require a WAR to hit as hard as a full on DPS.

It's also not as if it would be that hard to fix the existing issues with WAR: put a 10% passive increased healing on Defiance, fix Foresight so that it actually acts as a *real* tank CD, get rid of Storm's Path and put the self healing on Butcher's Block (so that you actually benefit from the self healing combo), and fix Steel Cyclone and Unleashed so that, rather than being completely worthless DPS increases that reduce a tank's survivability for an, at best, marginal increase in damage, they provide the explicit mitigation needs that are required (like having Unleashed consume Wrath stacks to provide 30% DR for 15 seconds and Steel Cyclone give you an absorb shield equal to the total damage dealt to all targets).

The reason that I play my WAR, knowing that it's worse than PAL, is because I *enjoy* playing WAR more. I've got PAL at 50, and it's boring as hell. WAR is fun. So I play it. It doesn't mean that the class doesn't have problems nor does it mean that it doesn't need to be fixed.

[Hachiko]

I've explicitly proven that a WAR and PAL do, effectively, the same amount of damage, if not giving a *slight* edge to PAL.

I agree with everything else you said, but in Shield Oath a PLD will be slightly lower in DPS than a WAR in defiance, but in Sword Oath a PLD will be doing more damage than a WAR out of defiance.

I think the funniest thing about WAR is they have all of this grandstanding. 2 damage dealing cooldowns! That's almost as many as a DPS class. Yet they all come at a huge cost (5 second pacification, 5 wrath stacks). And when you really look at them they're both like a 3-5% dps increase overall. Not to mention the fact that Unchained does nothing to buff Inner Beast damage either. Of course that's only available if you unchained + Infuriate anyway. Which is really too many cooldowns for a single heal.

That's sort of off the point. But yeah, WAR is ~8-16% higher in DPS than PLD if both are in their tank stance. PLD is higher out of tank stance.

[Kitru]

But yeah, WAR is ~8-16% higher in DPS than PLD if both are in their tank stance. PLD is higher out of tank stance.

I just did the math for *in* tank stance. It's a slight edge to PAL, and I've got *no clue* where you got the 8-16% number from.

[Kunkka]

I agree with everything else you said, but in Shield Oath a PLD will be slightly lower in DPS than a WAR in defiance, but in Sword Oath a PLD will be doing more damage than a WAR out of defiance.

.....

That's sort of off the point. But yeah, WAR is ~8-16% higher in DPS than PLD if both are in their tank stance. PLD is higher out of tank stance.

I'd disagree that PLD has higher DPS than warrior if both are out of tank stance. Maim is good and PLD has no corollary.

Using DPS as a gauge can be misleading. While, on average, the difference between WAR and PLD tanking dps is negligible, the burst potential warrior has is unrivaled. In just over 20 seconds, a warrior has the potential to put out 6k damage if they pop every cooldown. Not really all that useful in most scenarios but it's nice to be able to down titan heart with 2 dps down.

[mcfuzzi]

Didn't it used to provide a shield back in one of the beta's? If so what was the reason it got changed. Even if they made using the same math it would be pretty cool, you could potentially give yourself a 1-2k stoneskin every time it was up.(just using the numbers i have seen floating in this thread, I,m only 27 so no idea what ib really does damage wise)

<edit> I fail at spelling

[Kitru]

I'd disagree that PLD has higher DPS than warrior if both are out of tank stance. Maim is good and PLD has no corollary.

Actually, PAL does have a corollary. In fact, it has 2: Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within. WAR Fracture provides 300 potency every 30 seconds (100 immediate + 10 tick of 20 potency). Circle of Scorn is on a 25 second CD and provides 250 potency. Spirits Within is on a 30 second CD and, as a DPS, should always be 300 potency. Both Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within are off GCD, so they can be used without hindering anything else.

Now, if you want me to do the math (whee!)...

It's pretty much the same numbers as the tank stance stuff with a couple changes: WAR no longer has a .75 modifier and PAL loses the .8 modifier. On top of that, PAL gets some bonus potency in the form of Sword Oath and Spirits Within is used at max hp (since DPS doesn't take it to the face). Baseline potency per GCD of an autoattack is 83.33 (auto-attack / ((damage * delay) / GCD)). Sword Oath provides an additional 50 potency to each of those, such that PAL auto-attack is 133.33 additional potency. Bring in the previous formulas modified for the given values (using the Fracture math for WARs):

WAR:
(213.85 * 1.0556 + 83.33 * 1.11) * 1.2 / .9 = 424.31

PAL:
(203.3 + 25 + 25 + 133.33) * 1.1 = 425.29

PAL (with WAR present):
(203.3 + 25 + 25 + 133.33) * 1.1 / .9 = 472.54

So a PAL does either 100.2% of what a WAR does or 111.37% while in their DPS set ups. PAL is explicitly better, but it's not by a massive amount when you get down to it.

[Ahlen]

DoT stuff.

Also can't fracture be cross classed by paladin? So they get ALL THREE?

[Kitru]

Also can't fracture be cross classed by paladin? So they get ALL THREE?

The additional version of Fracture only has an 18 second duration, which reduces the effective potency from 300 to 220 while also increasing the GCD consumption. It's a *very* slight DPS increase to use it. So small that it's effectively pointless to bring it up.