Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

[o0sky0o]

To Visualize EasymodeX's simple and more complicated no Fracture rotation ->

http://imgur.com/Nmr1c4g

[Ayvar]

That does slightly more DPS than the OP's rotation.

It is the "HP IDC TTT // HP TTT TTT" rotation I listed in my post. We just use 1 letter for the abilities because it sucks to type them all out (and read them).

I feel like we go round and round on this. There are good discussions on pages 9 and 15 over the use of Fracture. Automatically labeling it as a dps loss is incorrect, the rotations without it assume 100% boss uptime. So far I've had 100% uptime on exactly one boss (Caduceus). Fracture is our second best potency ability (after Phlebotomize) that does not require a combo.

You can return to page 9 if you want for the calculations. Here's the rotation mentioned in the last two posts:

HT-PH-ID-Dis-CT-TT-VT-FT-HT-PH-TT-VT-FT-TT-VT-FT

Disembowel falls off by the time the rotation comes around, but Heavy Thrust is up so add an extra move for the buffed HT, and there's no DoT clipping:

170-187/132-198-242-193/220-181-242-363-205-205/132-181-242-363-181-242-363+187 (extra HT) for 17 moves total

4429 over 40.8s (2.4 GCD) = 108.5 potency/s

From page 9 (my original rotation accounting for the single clipped CT): 109.1 potency/s

Again, I do not want to come across as opposing Easy on everything, but don't ignore the last 15 pages of discussion by saying "yeah this does more dps".

Also, Easy, I was wondering if it would be alright if I add a section for your IDC rotation. I've been practicing it since it has much better dps with 100% uptime, and it's easier on tp starvation fights (such as the previously mentioned Caduceus). I think that would be useful information for people to have.

[EasymodeX]

Feel free to add whatever, I consider my posts public domain.

The fact of that matter is that in a static fight, there are 4 rotations that have been identified that are worth mentioning. The two without Fracture are the highest DPS and most TP-efficient. That said, the simplest rotation does include fracture.

You seem to be pretty hung up on Fracture as a 1-GCD dump, even though 0.1 DPS is not really worth discussing to any degree -- the complexity of the HPF rotation with offset IDCs is really what's worth discussing when the DPS you're getting is nearly identical to both simple rotations.

In addition, the numbers I've been seeing recently for the DE debuff point to it amplifying damage closer to 15%, although I haven't done enough testing on enough bosses to really find a number I'm comfortable with. Needless to say, a high DE buff skews numbers away from DOTs in general.

Regardless, I just did a manual analysis of when it would be useful to actually use FR as a "one last GCD before I lose contact" ability (because in several spots you'd clip the prior FR, so it becomes less efficient than ID or even True Thrust in various situations). The result is that it'd be a DPS gain in only 8/27 GCDs in your rotation -- for 19 of 27 GCDs, it would be equal or better to continue to attack in the normal pattern, rather than throwing in the FR.

Overall, I don't think it's really worth discussing. The main reason I would recommend against your rotation has nothing to do with FR -- it has to do with the fact that you're gaining no meaningful DPS over the two simple rotations. If you're going to deal with a more complex rotation, then use the IDC one to pick up a few % more DPS (and even then we're talking on the order of 2.3%).

The facts lie as they are, and I'm currently more interested in modeling BRD and MNK dps against DRGs. I've upgraded my model to handle dynamic GCD timing (using skill speed %; I don't know what the rating -> % conversion is), as well as automatically adjusting for looped buffs (fewer manual errors).

The results are actually pretty interesting.

Many claim that MNK DPS is "zomg the highest in the game if they get a static fight". This seems to be true to an extent, but not by very much -- in a basic priority rotation, I'm seeing MNKs at roughly 8% higher sustained DPS without MNK Perfect Balance (similarly, the DRG rotation with 0 Jumps). In my opinion, the brutal 20s ramp-up for the MNK really takes a crap on their viability, nevermind the frequent alternating position requirements.

Edit: I wasn't planning on speculating, but after thinking about it a little longer, I suspect that Perfect Balance is not much of a DPS increase for MNKs, unless you get Oppo form credit for Bootshine spam, which I don't think happens. This means that DRG jumps would narrow the gap (har har) slightly.

BRD is showing up as higher ST DPS by a small margin against DRG, but that does not include (a) BRD's lower WD, or (b) BRD's much larger and more significant array of cooldowns. I also need a good baseline crit% to use in my model (not sure if 15% is realistic). BRDs scale well off crit. DRGs are average. MNKs are poor.

To Visualize EasymodeX's simple and more complicated no Fracture rotation ->

http://imgur.com/Nmr1c4g

Thanks! Just to clarify, I didn't post the simple rotation. The HP IDC TTT / HP TTT TTT was posted by the R-dude on a prior page. The 4th rotation I mentioned (HPF IDC TTT) was posted by a guy on gamefaqs.

[Lundrai]

I've upgraded my model to handle dynamic GCD timing (using skill speed %; I don't know what the rating -> % conversion is)

The best suggestions I've found for this (working on my own sheets) was that Global Cooldown = 2.5 - 0.01 x roundup(speed/10).

That's what I've been going off until I find anything to disprove it.

*Note: the formula was not my own work and can be found here.

[Raven3557]

Wow i read all 16 pages and its an amazing thread! Thanks for all the hard work you're putting in it I'm really grateful. Even if I'm not a dragoon yet, it makes me want to become one even more !

I wanted to ask, with the main combos (whichever you use ) what additional spells would you advise? Like boost or cross class ones.

For now(lvl21) I don't have many combo possibilities yet ^^ ill have to work on putting all these spells in my ps3 hotbars so I can use them efficiently.

Again thanks a lot

[Sliferx]

So Easymode lets say we're going with HP - IDC - TTT -> HP - TTT - TTT where do you suggest the off-GCD skills to be. Blood for blood, Internal release and PowerSurge-Jump (Leg sweep not good to include in the standard rotation imo)

Is it like (HT - BFB - Ph - PS - ID - Jump - Dis - CT - TT - VT - LS - FT - HT - Ph - IR - TTT TTT)

[Zenmaku]

So Easymode lets say we're going with HP - IDC - TTT -> HP - TTT - TTT where do you suggest the off-GCD skills to be. Blood for blood, Internal release and PowerSurge-Jump (Leg sweep not good to include in the standard rotation imo)

Is it like (HT - BFB - Ph - PS - ID - Jump - Dis - CT - TT - VT - LS - FT - HT - Ph - IR - TTT TTT)

You have to be careful where to place the Jumps because of the long animation time. You want to place it after attacks that let you have more GCD time to be in the air. I'd recommend placing the Jumps after Dis, CT, or FT for minimum time used on the GCD.

Also, Leg sweep is never bad in the standard rotation if you are fighting an enemy where you don't have to time your stuns perfectly (I.E. trash mobs). Extra damage is extra damage, and being off the GCD and a short animation means you can place it after pretty much any attack and not lose GCD time.

[Zenmaku]

Another thing I'd like to point out to some of these rotations. If you really want to maximize DPS against groups of enemies rather than bosses try this ->

HP - RoT - ID - C (on secondary target) - Ph (on secondary target) - TTT (on main target) . I find this to be way higher DPS than simply spamming AOE skills or just focusing a single target. Most of the time you wont get your full use of Chaos Thrust on trash groups anyway unless you put it on a secondary, and Life Break / Internal Release seem to be far more effective with hard hitting single target skills like Full Thrust so you don't want to just spam RoT. However, if you are using HT anyway, RoT's 150x # of mobs potency is quite nice

[EasymodeX]

So Easymode lets say we're going with HP - IDC - TTT -> HP - TTT - TTT where do you suggest the off-GCD skills to be.

As soon as possible when you're confident you'll be in contact with the boss for most of their duration.

Blood for blood, Internal release and PowerSurge-Jump (Leg sweep not good to include in the standard rotation imo)

Is it like (HT - BFB - Ph - PS - ID - Jump - Dis - CT - TT - VT - LS - FT - HT - Ph - IR - TTT TTT)

Sure, although you want to stack BFB and IR (and all cooldowns in general) where possible. The only mentionable observation is that in the initial rotation, your HT, PH, and ID are going to be weaker, so you want to use BFB after the ID (e.g. before you get to your big hits -- Disembowel and CT). Internal Release is a significantly weaker buff than BFB, so you can use it 1 spot before.

Overall that optimization is extremely minor.


In terms of the other discussion on Jump timing, I've noticed that Phlebotomize seems to have a relatively quick animation. Full Thrust seems pretty quick, but I am usually mentally considering the next phase of the rotation (which usually requires repositioning), so Jump doesn't work as well (it fixes my position).

Attack animations (re: OGCDs and Jumps) are probably worth their own entire discussion by themselves.

[Sliferx]

You have to be careful where to place the Jumps because of the long animation time. You want to place it after attacks that let you have more GCD time to be in the air. I'd recommend placing the Jumps after Dis, CT, or FT for minimum time used on the GCD.

I actually place my jump right after FT, usually i do VT - PS - FT - Jump. As for leg sweep i do it whenever its a mob/boss that im allowed to stun if not (like ifrit) then i wont do it.

snip

Thanks ill try doing BFB after ID then, right now i still dont know whether i should go with Fr+Ph or only Ph. Because i got used to the Fr+Ph rotation so i usually do both after a heavy thrust. I'll try the [HP - IDC - TTT -> HP - TTT - TTT] though on titan HM and see how it fairs.

For off-GCD i can do it like this (HT - Ph - ID - BFB - Dis - CT - IR - TT - VT - PS - FT - Jump - HT - Ph - TT - VT - LS - FT TTT)