Job Individuality/Pride/Dedication

[Onisake]

So summing this part up, it's "because it doesn't work with this strategy". Why not try a different one? Why does it have to be a BLM burn? Because it's the fastest? Safest? Always repeating the same strategy is boring.

Arcell hit what i wanted to say pretty well.

Again, and i can't say this enough, it largely depends on the group you are in. It's up to your leader to decide 1) what strat you're running 2) possible deviations to that strat

if you don't like how it's being run. either leave or start your own group.

Not really looking to pick a fight, but LNC/DRG is easily the most fun class to fight GB.

I exclusively fought GB on my Lancer because it was the most fun, you just have to learn the range. MNK can do it to but its like a stick and run kind of tactic.

Player skill overrides most things. due to latency and skill some players may not be able to hit and run effectively. what works for you doesn't work for everyone. some groups off the wall strats are successful. others they are not.

I'm willing to try any strat with any player. but not everyone likes to do that. some people dont' like running content over and over again trying to figure out exactly how to get off the wall strats to work. they find it a waste of time and would rather just do what is known to work. there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

there is somethign wrong with someone joining a group. saying they have DRG, WHM, and MNK available. and then complaining they have to go WHM when the group needs a whm and already has 3 DRGs.

the reality of the situations is, if you only want to play one job, only level one job. if you leveled all jobs trying to figure out which job you wanted to play, just say the job you dont' want to play isnt' geared, or dont' mention you have it.

as someone who runs events and has organized PUGs i can't stress how infuriating it is for someone to say 'I have drg, whm, blm, brd, and war' and then ask them to switch to blm and hear 'i don't want to play blm. mnk will work fine' it's not their decision. it's mine because i'm leading the group.

usually I will ask to see their gear. if i think it's up to par i'll allow it. but more likely than not i end up saying. 'sorry, i need you on blm if we're going to win this. we're cutting it close as it is. I know you don't want to play blm but i need you to decide if you'd rather win this fight with us, or try the fight with someone else with a questionable strat. not all of us have 4 hours to waste trying new things'

[Soukyuu]

Player skill overrides most things. due to latency and skill some players may not be able to hit and run effectively. what works for you doesn't work for everyone. some groups off the wall strats are successful. others they are not.

This is precisely the reason why one should let someone play a class that is deemed to not be suited in an encounter. As an example, I totally suck at BLM. I just can't play that class even if my life depended on it. I have no problems surviving as a MNK while dealing good damage though. If I already participated in an encounter, I know what to expect. However, the problem is, when you convince someone to let you play MNK in a new encounter and after the first failed try they go "see, it doesn't work". Yeah, it doesn't work. Their first attempt at the regular strat probably didn't work either, but since they know it's an accepted strat, they assume they did something wrong and need experience, versus the other case where it simply "doesn't work".

Also, latency is a lame excuse unless we're speaking about more than a second delay on anything, which is not normal and will make them suck just as much with any other job.

there is somethign wrong with someone joining a group. saying they have DRG, WHM, and MNK available. and then complaining they have to go WHM when the group needs a whm and already has 3 DRGs.

I'm not arguing against that. When I name my jobs, I only name those that I can play and have experience with.

'sorry, i need you on blm if we're going to win this. we're cutting it close as it is. I know you don't want to play blm but i need you to decide if you'd rather win this fight with us, or try the fight with someone else with a questionable strat. not all of us have 4 hours to waste trying new things'

Because it's all about winning with the majority of people. Most of my fun memories come from something going wrong and everyone laughing about it. I guess I better not participate in "hardcore" endgame content.

If I had enough free time, I'd probably made my own group, but so far it seems that people with a similar mindset are few and are strewn across servers.

[Cailae]

Because it's all about winning with the majority of people. Most of my fun memories come from something going wrong and everyone laughing about it. I guess I better not participate in "hardcore" endgame content.

If I had enough free time, I'd probably made my own group, but so far it seems that people with a similar mindset are few and are strewn across servers.

What you are implying here is that you want to join parties, have them let you waste their time by learning a new strategy, and then you don't even have the courtesy to at least take the initiative yourself? Do you not see how ridiculously selfish that is?

It's one thing to look for like-minded people yourself to do content in ways you want to. Find other people that want to make fun memories or wiping! Join a linkshell that does stuff like that. But to join a PUG group shouting for a win on something, then demand they let you use a job not suited for their strategy then deride them for wanting the win, and kicking you? that is just, wow.

I think that is the single most selfish thing I have ever heard in any MMO ever.

[Soukyuu]

What you are implying here is that you want to join parties, have them let you waste their time by learning a new strategy, and then you don't even have the courtesy to at least take the initiative yourself? Do you not see how ridiculously selfish that is?

No, I wasn't, you're interpreting too much into it.

t's one thing to look for like-minded people yourself to do content in ways you want to. Find other people that want to make fun memories or wiping! Join a linkshell that does stuff like that. But to join a PUG group shouting for a win on something, then demand they let you use a job not suited for their strategy then deride them for wanting the win, and kicking you? that is just, wow.

I'm not saying they have to use my strategy, all I'm saying is, there is more than one strategy for a certain encounter but people are usually not willing to deviate from the one deemed standard. This not only applies to PUGs but also many LS.

And then comes the whole "selfish" thing. It's easy to say, someone is being selfish, but ultimately, if you don't enjoy playing the game, why are you playing (and paying)? And if you are enjoying the game, why is me wanting to enjoy it being selfish?

[Aenarion]

And then comes the whole "selfish" thing. It's easy to say, someone is being selfish, but ultimately, if you don't enjoy playing the game, why are you playing (and paying)? And if you are enjoying the game, why is me wanting to enjoy it being selfish?

There's nothing wrong with you wanting to enjoy the game. However, it becomes "selfish" when you decide that other people must enjoy the game your way. This isn't directly at you personally, as it applies far more to the OP anyway.

[Soukyuu]

There's nothing wrong with you wanting to enjoy the game. However, it becomes "selfish" when you decide that other people must enjoy the game your way. This isn't directly at you personally, as it applies far more to the OP anyway.

I understand that, Cailae misunderstood what I meant, that's all.

[Cailae]

No, I wasn't, you're interpreting too much into it.

I'm not saying they have to use my strategy, all I'm saying is, there is more than one strategy for a certain encounter but people are usually not willing to deviate from the one deemed standard. This not only applies to PUGs but also many LS.

And then comes the whole "selfish" thing. It's easy to say, someone is being selfish, but ultimately, if you don't enjoy playing the game, why are you playing (and paying)? And if you are enjoying the game, why is me wanting to enjoy it being selfish?

You are stating that a group removing you for not wanting to spend their limited play time in doing things your way, and then stating that you don't want to spend your limited play time gathering people to do things the way you want to do them. If this was not your intent I would go back and re-read your post, this is what you directly implied. This is unreasonable. There are many players in this game on many servers. If Linkshells you tried did not offer to you the play style you were interested in I really am sorry. But you should keep trying. Everyone should have fun in the game that they play.

But it seemed to me you were demonizing players for not following your play style. If your goals and the partys goals do not intersect, neither of you should be forced to cater to the other. Keep looking, you will find people to play with, and that's when you will have the most fun.

Your entire post is completely sensible, but I would like to point out a couple things. For starters, not all goals/desires are going to be playable in a game. Sometimes, it's not a viable option, period. This, however, has little to do with the mechanics already in the game. Sure, you can't tank with a Dragoon, but rarely does anyone ask for that. It's precisely because what they're looking for isn't already in the game that it's often hard to describe, and the points they suggest seem arbitrary or often unreasonable.

That's not to say that this inability is always the case, or that a set portion will be locked off -- a good game design can make more of those possible, even without reducing the enjoyment of what's in place already. But as such the changes needed to reach that greater accessibility probably won't come from adjustments within the existent game mechanics -- such as the restrictions given in example by the OP.

Exactly. For that level of adjustment, making a job in a situation more viable. Or making a job more desirable in more situations is a Design change, not a Player change. Expecting the player base to move away from optimum efficiency for no benefit to themselves or their goals is... well it's not going to work out in the player asking for the changes favor.

Totally true. But for many people, comparative advantage or comparative equity isn't the problem. The problem is more likely that the entire grand scale of the job can be had in approximately two hours with enough anima and a good party. Or, regardless of the time, the fact that the player never once made a unique decision in keeping with a "dragoon" or pursuing that role. You merely took a little extra time while leveling a strand that levels almost identically to every other strand.

It leaves a raid team basically estimated by how many good knives they can bring to a gun fight. They all cap out at about the same places, which should be fine in the name of balance, but to many none of those caps feel satisfyingly deep.

I don't think it's unreasonable to feel like jobs should be more than just a collection of tools. I'd personally rather have the collection of tools be turned into a more unique job or few jobs that both better define the player, and the player more choice-fully defines for himself.

And again, if changes were to be made to aid this, it probably wouldn't come from any 'adjustments' to the armory or job systems. It'd have to start further back.

I agree entirely. It would be nice to have that feel back that job is something unique. This was something FFXI had by having such a difficult leveling system. Back in the old days you knew someone with a 75 Job was an accomplished player and one look at their gear you could tell how dedicated they were. It's a depth of system we do not (did not) have in FFXIV. The ease of leveling is just, it's way too easy. But you can still take pride in your job. Proper melds in good gear can show a level of dedication. You can tell those that just leveled a job to level and and those that care about it generally through this. I generally agree, most of the time it feels like a job is just something you have done for whatever reason. Very little "meat" to them. This really becomes apparent to anyone that DOES do things that require switching. It's get gear, figure out rotation, do rotation. Eventually it becomes mechanical. The difference usually between a good Player on a job and a bad one is which one knows what to do when watching for a Mobs TP move.

I would really like 2.0 to add more to jobs to make them feel more unique and have some meaning. But again, that's absolutely a design issue.

[Soukyuu]

But it seemed to me you were demonizing players for not following your play style.

Like I said, this was not what I meant. I guess my post can be read this way, that's why I tried to explain what I meant. Sometimes my posts are not as clear to other people as they appear to me, mainly because they're kind of just a "stream of thought" if you know what I mean.

Anyway, my point seems to be a bit different from the OP's, since for me it's more of my issue with the community, while the OP concentrates on the armory system, so I'll be excusing myself o/

[Shurrikhan]

I agree entirely. It would be nice to have that feel back that job is something unique. This was something FFXI had by having such a difficult leveling system. Back in the old days you knew someone with a 75 Job was an accomplished player and one look at their gear you could tell how dedicated they were. It's a depth of system we do not (did not) have in FFXIV. The ease of leveling is just, it's way too easy. But you can still take pride in your job. Proper melds in good gear can show a level of dedication. You can tell those that just leveled a job to level and and those that care about it generally through this. I generally agree, most of the time it feels like a job is just something you have done for whatever reason. Very little "meat" to them. This really becomes apparent to anyone that DOES do things that require switching. It's get gear, figure out rotation, do rotation. Eventually it becomes mechanical. The difference usually between a good Player on a job and a bad one is which one knows what to do when watching for a Mobs TP move.

I would really like 2.0 to add more to jobs to make them feel more unique and have some meaning. But again, that's absolutely a design issue.

This is exactly why I think it's important that a job be what a character makes, rather than each their own little manual of "learn, do, optimize stats". But, as we agree, this is a fundamental design problem. At the moment there's not enough difference between damage types, derivatives, etc, to really base much strategy on. If people were figuring out how to develop their abilities to better take on a problem, role, or style of combat (actively melding their composition of classes into what would eventually become their own job) it'd be hard not for them to eventually understand just what's needed in strategy, inside-and-out, rather than just following job-preset rotations.

But again, that's a lot of design work away. It'd be something like starting as a swordsman, then developing as a fencer, gaining spells, focusing on fire and light-type magic (stemming from fire), develop that into pain-type effects, develop added precision, develop enfire such that magic becomes my slightly more prominent offensive stat, swap from leather to cloth for added magic stat, and some 6 steps later finally reach a Red Mage, almost coincidentally (though likely with some very nifty NPC role models...).

The steps you went through can still be used for other things. I could gone sword-and-buckler instead using defensive charging through thaumaturge traits to strengthen fire magic while tanking, etc. There should simply be a limit to how many sources you can delve into, in such a way that with enough time you're always pushing out that maximum, but very slowly.

When materia was still merely mentioned in future plans, I actually thought it would take after the idea of Echo, in that it would have to do with memory and be a bit archetypally connecting. This was merely me being overly idealistic, but in that one line of thought it had taken all my favorite ideas (namely, the above stuff), and mechanics not in the game (deleveling being the main one) and fit it all together smoothly, in an original overall world concept too!

That it turned into dull stat points that further rendered AF relatively useless... was a pretty big disappointment.

[Solas]

Well this will be my first post I believe, and normally wouldn't write one, but then again, this is afterall a very important subject to FFxiv's future.

First things first is the problem of the low level of dedication needed to play eny of the current jobs well, and become extremely well geared without having to play the class you are gearing up for at all. With that in mind lets look to where the problem originates, compare alittle to ffxi as I am an old player, and then find a solution.

Origin and comparesing: In ffxi you had to be very good at your job to get enywhere as it was all teambased which was taken out of FFxiv to make it less time consumable which was very much needed, but because of this change the game became alittle easier and the pride one got from it was lowered.
Next was the job system changes with a view from reallife I imagine changing ones job with the switch of a weapon, since in reallife if you use a pitchfork you will be considered a farmer, and if you then change into a suit with pistols starting to kill people you will be something else. This means the old job system was "flawed" and this new one is by definition "better" or closer to the truth of life whichever way you want to look at it. The problem created with this change though was the drops you got from one job could be used by the other which meant the leveling was further lowered in difficulty and people having good gear didn't have to get it from using that job at all so things like uniqueness and comparing gear or abilities died off again lowering the pride one should have.

Solution: Now the first problem FFxiv got rid of as best they could by making mobs call for others to help them if you were in a party. It made it harder and was still rewarding as you had an easier time getting the exp chains so I wont really go into that one as its more tweaking how much it should be better or worse and if the harder mobs like bosses should get trash mobs with them if a party escalates from a half to full and so on and so forth.
The next problem however giving people grieve in this post is mostly the issue of gear as there should always be a fair decree change in gear between dedicated and parttimers. The only real way I see this change in a somewhat reasonable fashion all can agree on to a certain extent will be in two parts. First by having the endgame bosses only drop to your current job, because if you do it with lesser mobs people will complain, and in that way you will still be able see a real difference in peoples gear compared to what they are good at since no party wants a poor healer and so on just because they still need that gear. The next way is to use a "skill evaluation quest" from time to time like in you got in FFxi at last levels. Simply put make a quest line for each thing needed for that job, like with healing a npc party in a fight so noone dies and with the higher the level the more difficult it will become by having the healer to dispel and parhaps even raise at the same time. This could be done around every 10and give a really good item to use for the next ten levels or so tillthe next part of the chain comes up and again at max level.