Job Individuality/Pride/Dedication

[Punainen]

You = Someone who needs to brag to feel good about themselves.

Restricting our ability to play whatever jobs we feel like; I vote NO. If you make people unable to switch, that's immensely lame. If you make people have to go to their 'mog house' to switch like in FFXI, that wont solve anything, and just make changing inconvenient.

[Lilith]

I only read OP's post.

I feel what you're saying. I like the armory system. A couple of things that would (partially) solve this problem:
- Make it harder / more time consuming to level a class/job.
- Make every class/job have a more in-depth gameplay that requires practice
- Make every class/job equally useful.
- Make artifact armor harder to get.

[Crevox]

I only read OP's post.

I feel what you're saying. I like the armory system. A couple of things that would (partially) solve this problem:
- Make it harder / more time consuming to level a class/job.
- Make every class/job have a more in-depth gameplay that requires practice
- Make every class/job equally useful.
- Make artifact armor harder to get.

Pretty much, and make it so you can't get armor/weapons for a class you're not playing.

Restricting our ability to play whatever jobs we feel like; I vote NO.

I never said that. I just want to restrict the ability to switch on-the-fly, perhaps by requiring you to go to a specific location to change classes. Yes, it will change things, because people are unwilling to accept party deviations due to how easy it is to change classes. It's a core game issue that has many negative effects on the community and the health of the game (the former is just one example).

You = someone who didn't read the whole thread.

If you want to be stuck in a specific role, go play wow. I like switching jobs on the fly thank you very much.

WoW is not like that at all. In fact, in WoW, it's even easier to play "multiple roles" due to the ability to swap your talents any time anywhere. Also, again, I never said we should remove the ability to change jobs/classes, just a restriction; however, that is only a small facet of the information this thread concerns.

Some people like playing a lot of classes; some people don't. I personally want to focus on one, I should not be shunned or penalized for that difference of playstyle (which may or may not be the same as the global playerbase's playstyle).

Every single content at 1.0 was doable with any job setup, you see the issue here is most players are LAZY, refuckinemphasize on lazy, if you want to do strat your way, then go make your own strat, go setup the party and proof to people it works and people will starts using it.

BUT no, people would rather on freakin whine on forum instead of refining their own strat, they would rather people carry their ass. So, they keep using the strategy that apparently they hates. Well, guess what? freaking suck it up if you are lazy.

This is MMO, there is never true balance, some job will shines at certain instances, some at others. Get this in your head deeply, this is the price you have to pay for uniqueness. What devs can do is make them all viable in the fights and that is what they already did.

Ifrit? magic and melee burnable
Moogle? magic and melee burnable
Garuda? you need both magic and melee to win
25m Speedrun instaces? you can win with any combination of battle classes


This issue isn't going away in a game where holy trinities exist, so suck it up.

The sad thing about this post is it has very little to do with my OP. It's like you copy pasted this from another subject because you liked the post; it's irrelevant. Are you just saying it's the communities fault with that wall of text or what? Because, I've already covered that argument.

What's funnier is this has absolutely nothing to do with the holy trinity. I have no idea why you even brought that up.

[Arcell]

I never said that. I just want to restrict the ability to switch on-the-fly, perhaps by requiring you to go to a specific location to change classes. Yes, it will change things, because people are unwilling to accept party deviations due to how easy it is to change classes. It's a core game issue that has many negative effects on the community and the health of the game (the former is just one example).

And that would change exactly nothing, except time spent running back to change. It would go from changing when you get to the dungeon to people telling you what to come on beforehand and if you don't come on that then the whole party has to wait while you go back and change. It also means if you want to switch things up and try new strategies, most of the party has to run back and switch which takes up a lot of time.

You said yourself that you pretty much just play WHM, in response to my comments about AF not being good enough. I don't think you understand how hard it is for classes like DRG and MNK. Those two specifically upgrade far above AF, aren't suited to all content and are very often asked to switch out. Restricting when we can switch classes doesn't change that, it just means it'll take more time. People aren't going to start taking non-optimal classes just because it's harder to switch.

[Meta]

And that would change exactly nothing, except time spent running back to change. It would go from changing when you get to the dungeon to people telling you what to come on beforehand and if you don't come on that then the whole party has to wait while you go back and change. It also means if you want to switch things up and try new strategies, most of the party has to run back and switch which takes up a lot of time.

...Restricting when we can switch classes doesn't change that, it just means it'll take more time. People aren't going to start taking non-optimal classes just because it's harder to switch.

This wins the thread. The same people who will ask you to switch on the spot will be asking you to leave and come back as the job or GTFO. Without on-the-fly switching, you're just making everyone afk for another 5-15 minutes and delay whatever it is that you need to do. It's an utterly pointless waste of time.

Not only that, having switching on the fly can actually help you in your case where you only can/want to play as one job; someone else can switch to accommodate your inability to play the desired role.

I'm not sure why anyone would want to remove the most convenient and defining feature of FFXIV, especially with gear sets on the horizon. I'd resub in an instant SE added these features to FFXI.

[Shurrikhan]

*Please don't take my responses as directly argumentative to the quoted section. They merely follow them.*

The lesson here is not "Change the game to suit me" the lesson here is "Find people with my goals/desires" to play with.

Your entire post is completely sensible, but I would like to point out a couple things. For starters, not all goals/desires are going to be playable in a game. Sometimes, it's not a viable option, period. This, however, has little to do with the mechanics already in the game. Sure, you can't tank with a Dragoon, but rarely does anyone ask for that. It's precisely because what they're looking for isn't already in the game that it's often hard to describe, and the points they suggest seem arbitrary or often unreasonable.

That's not to say that this inability is always the case, or that a set portion will be locked off -- a good game design can make more of those possible, even without reducing the enjoyment of what's in place already. But as such the changes needed to reach that greater accessibility probably won't come from adjustments within the existent game mechanics -- such as the restrictions given in example by the OP.

Showing off your Dragoon with it's gear and then having someone immediately change to the same gear, what is the problem? Are you upset someone else that has other jobs put in the same effort for their dragoon, while also juggling other things? Should they not take pride in their stuff the same as you. If your Dragoons are identical, the situation goes one of two ways. Either your gear is easy to obtain, in which case you have a misplaced sense of pride. Or, You both worked hard on your Dragoon, and both should show pride. Dedication in one thing does not me dedication from other things.

Totally true. But for many people, comparative advantage or comparative equity isn't the problem. The problem is more likely that the entire grand scale of the job can be had in approximately two hours with enough anima and a good party. Or, regardless of the time, the fact that the player never once made a unique decision in keeping with a "dragoon" or pursuing that role. You merely took a little extra time while leveling a strand that levels almost identically to every other strand.

It leaves a raid team basically estimated by how many good knives they can bring to a gun fight. They all cap out at about the same places, which should be fine in the name of balance, but to many none of those caps feel satisfyingly deep.

I don't think it's unreasonable to feel like jobs should be more than just a collection of tools. I'd personally rather have the collection of tools be turned into a more unique job or few jobs that both better define the player, and the player more choice-fully defines for himself.

And again, if changes were to be made to aid this, it probably wouldn't come from any 'adjustments' to the armory or job systems. It'd have to start further back.

[Totorixiii]

Might as well bring back ffxi skill up requirement for every single skills such as weapons, enhancing magic, enfeebling magic, evasions, parrying, etc, etc to make leveling take more time???

Once level cap is raised to level 75 in the future, leveling from level 1 jobs will take much longer unless you play FFXIV religiously and gets to level super quick or lazily get PL all the way.

Correct me if i'm wrong but 2.0 ARR will have a substantial increase in experience points requirement to level up to next level compared to 1.0. Which means it will take much longer to get to level 50 from scratch level 1 job.

I guess for those who feel like its been too easy to get to 50 and has no more jobs at 50, well guess what, too late now, you will have to wait for new jobs and level cap increased.

And for those like me who only have 2 jobs at level 50, is going to have to level other jobs while taking much longer at 2.0 ARR.

I have a feeling that come 2.0 ARR, it will take much longer level up.

Maybe this will fulfill you partially when it comes to feeling more pride in your job?

[Crevox]

I have a feeling that come 2.0 ARR, it will take much longer level up.

That would be appreciated, although at the moment, Yoshi seems to favor the current speed of things.

[darkm0d]

I've always wanted more job uniqueness. I am completely against "locking" your job, that's ridiculous, job flexibility is what makes XI / XIV fantastic (and other FF titles).

I made the point a while back about how lack luster job's seem to be, and I really hope they address that in ARR.

Ok, I just tried to find my post from like, months ago and gave up, basically I compared WHM from XI to XIV. If you ever main'd WHM on both, you get it. XI had something like, 103 spells, XIV has like, 26 or something. When ti came to class specific, I think it was around 68 or so, compared to like, 12 in ARR.

[Onisake]

I really think the armory system is silly, especially being able to switch classes anywhere. Your class becomes a meaningless choice. Anyone can be anything anytime, so who or what you've grown yourself to be ends up being irrelevant. There's so many times where this comes into play.

1. People want you to swap to the job that is most effective for the situation, all the time; too bad if you want to play X, you're forced to play Y or be kicked. In FFXI I'm sure this happened too, but mid dungeon they're like "we're against coincounter? you can't play melee, swap to ranged now or we're kicking." This happened for many encounters. In other games such as FFXI it was like "I know that job you're playing isn't THE BEST for the situation, but I'm sure we'll get by." People also don't seem to understand that just because you have the class/job doesn't mean you want to play it and doesn't mean you are experienced/geared/skilled with it. I played WHM a lot and sometimes I was asked to go BLM and I said I probably wasn't going to be comfortable with it (lack of gear, didn't play it enough to feel safe on enmity, didn't want to take the risk) and people just didn't seem to understand why I wouldn't go BLM for them (and I was seen as rude).

I've never encountered this. If you ONLY do pick up groups, i can see this happening. but that's part of what makes playing an MMO fun. finding a good dedicated group of friends to play with.

I personally had every job at 50 except PLD and DRG. The two jobs I liked the most were BRD and WHM. everytime my LS did an event I was on one of these two jobs. We would occasionally ask people to switch jobs. but we asked. If they said no, we found another person with that job.

so in a nut shell: your mileage may vary. While this is a videogame, we're all still real people. so real-world lessons still apply. you get the experience out of the game that you put into it. if you're not taking the time to find a group that's right for you that's your problem. SE can't do anything about that. changing the armory system won't fix that problem, because that just means people will level 5 different characters to have 5 different jobs, rather than having one character with all 5.

2. It's not fun when you're like "oh check out my cool dragoon armor and lance" and the other guy goes "oh yeah" and just swaps to it too immediately. It ruins individuality, and gets rid of the ability to say "I AM A DRAGOON" (because technically you can be anything anytime). The class/job choice you make is meaningless, and you just don't have that good feeling about it. I understand people can swap jobs in FFXI too, but anyone can be anything anytime... I want to feel good about having Carbuncle walk around with me, and yet anyone can have him out with them with a push of a button.

Never had this experience. everyone i know has never had this experience. I understand you want to be a unique snowflake. but if you take a step back all snow flakes start to look the same.

if you dont' feel accomplished with having carbuncle just because other people have carbuncle you have a case of the e-peenitis. get over it >.>

3. A large portion of the reason everyone levels up every class/job is because it's so easy. Swap your weapon, gg good to go. It's difficult to feel accomplished saying like "I am a level 50 WHM" in your party. Not only does most of the party have that too, they'll be like "oh I can just switch to that." Sure, you can switch at your house or whatever in FFXI, but that was a LOT more effort to take for a lot of reasons (gotta have the gear which was harder to fully get, had to have the high level job which was harder, and had to spend a long time going back to who knows where to switch and come back). You were appreciated for playing that class, you had individuality, you felt good; in this game, who cares. If a party is 7/8 and just needs a WHM, instead of looking for that dedicated soul who actually is skilled and geared and loves the class, it's just "I'll just switch to WHM" *equip staff*. In worse situations, someone who loves their job (that dedicated dragoon guy) is forced to play WHM because the party is pressuring him to (they know he has WHM).

This is the same as point 1. find a good group. WHM was the second job I had at 50. after mnk. while I was leveling my other jobs I never had to switch to whm. If anything, I would say (In an SB pt) "Let me get my War/Brd/whatever to 50 and then i'll switch to whm and help out" but that's courteous. i don't HAVE to do that.

In FFXIV 2.0, I'm gonna want to main Summoner. But, what bums me out, is that EVERYONE is going to be leveling it at launch, even though a lot of people have zero interest in it. They're just doing it "because they can." Yeah I know a lot of people want to see the lower level content and don't have any other classes to experience it, but still... what's going to set me apart from the people that are just "summonerlols" and me, a serious dedicated person to the job? It should feel like a strong dedication and others should be like "wow, you got that far with summoner/you have that much gear/SOMETHING" rather than just *swap weapon* "yup I'm as good as you now."

same as point 2.

I'm finding it difficult to articulate my point, but I hope you understand.

And I know I posted this in another thread, but I felt it was a slightly different topic and the content of the post deserved its own thread.

No, I think most of us get it. you want to be a unique snow flake in the game and be the only summoner left in the world. sorry. not going to happen. a lot of people will level summoner when it comes out. but then they'll get over it and switch back to their main.

not everyone wants to be a summoner. so just relax.

EDIT: Here's a good post by IronSoup that also explain some of what I'm trying to say:

it's not easy to be good at any job. but some people have a different definition of 'good' if all your doing is leveling, than yeah. I'll agree with that. but once you start trying to do Garuda, Darnus, etc. you can really see weaknesses. I cannot agree with this.

in FFXI it took me 4 years of playing off and on to get my first 75. it took FOREVER. but that's mainly because i didn't know what i was doing, and i spent the majority of my time questing and helping my LS mates.

my second job to 75 took a week. Almost everyone I knew with multiple jobs at 75 had those jobs and swapped to those jobs because they WANTED to. if they didn't want to they didn't. end of story. that's been my experience in FFXIV as well.

Here's more from me:

As someone who understands how stats worked int he game, simply getting a Garuda bow did not make you a good archer. the rest of your gear kit and skill level made a BIG difference.

As an example. after the servers shut down my LS did a garuda run for giggles. we had an AF only BLM rocking a relic staff. I had my storm LT bow and I out-damaged the blm. on BRD >.> so having some epic gear doesn't automatically make you top tier.