CG Midlander

[Anonymoose]

btw i think the Leviathan we came to think off is not the real one because in 2.0 he is dead you see his bones. Also from the 2.0 art work Leviathan have a diff color from the one we see in the LL storyline i may be wrong but that just my input about that.

Something's definitely up with it, and Ferne can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Yoshida-san just wants to make the existing Leviathan a little more... Leviathan-ey.

They seem to just be two different styles of the exact same structure (liney things off the head, wingy things off the body, etc.) - and of the two, we know the latter is Leviathan and that the former has outright used Tidal Wave (and I believe was referred to as Leviathan by devs but ... as far as evidence for that, I got nothin')

If they're seriously weaving such a convoluted story, a majority of people (myself included) that play through it will never understand what's going on half the time, just like FFXI's CoP missions.

It did take me a few tries to get it, but after I did it all seemed so obvious that the scenes were trying to spoon feed it to me. The big thing is that we didn't yet have the core concept of what was going on. I imagine that this problem were exacerbated by two things: (A) The Unending Journey didn't exist in those days (B) it's practically considered actio non grata to watch cutscenes in the moment. Either you're trying to speed through them to get somewhere, or you're speeding through them to not hold up your group (doubly so if the cutscene is actively running down the damn timer).

That's why I beseech SE to consider carefully the placement of quest flags so that all information can be revisited by the Unending Journey. A lot of instances are skipped in which seemingly throwaway conversation actually has very important observations from NPCs that help you constrain your theories.

The very opening scene is where we meet these two. While they seem to understand moogle-speak, Yda thinks they must be in the afterlife. They also seem rather shocked at the end of the third quest when they realise they were looking at the past with you. It suggests that they got their echo skill at about the same time you did and if they were indeed echo hopping (and that opening sequence gets really complicated if they are), then they themselves are equally unaware of it.

The same thing happens in Limsa, except that it seems you echo-jumped Y'shtola in the middle of her echo-jumping Sthalmann and it threw you both backwards. My impression was that they could echo jump, but were shocked that you could - this shock arising because they'd already seen you.

I've got a long way to go before I start Grid's story - but FIRST IMPRESSIONS I had assumed that you were echo-jumping their arrival in Gridania just as they were coming onto the scene as well, and they just assumed you'd been there at the time. The whole forest goes into a rage after the starshower... so what arrived at the time must have been important enough for the circle to investigate.

In the Grand Company Storyline, a scene occurs in which several copies of Y'shtola surround you, implying that the Y'shtolas from different points in her life are all echo-jump converging on your position.

And that brings me to a different thought. When did the members of the circle of knowing become archons? Are they really incarnations of the Twelve in the flesh like the archons of yore, or did they simply choose to adopt the title for the purpose of progressing their cause? Their cause being the unification of the city states against the impending threats.

I'm struggling with that one myself. The Seventh Umbral Era storyline has them much more self-aware about their purpose and powers than the opening cutscenes did. But at least the Limsa storyline appears that this happened quite some time ago. For instance, in Fade to White, it's been years since they've heard anything but rumors, and then you show up where Y'shtola lost "they key," implying that years have passed since she was seen.

Seeing as Y'shtola was presumably able to send in multiple jumps of herself at once, perhaps we're echoing The Circle's first arrival, but in reality, they're currently echo jumping into our time from their position at the Final Battle. They know much more now than they did at the time we're echoing them.

[Zenaku]

Sorry, Moose. I have another spanner for your gobcogs.

Where you have deeply looked into Limsa, I've spent more time digging around Gridania. Your assertion that Ysh'tola was echo-hopping for half the story implies the rest of the circle of knowing were as well, but this is undermined by what Yda and Papalymo teach us.

The very opening scene is where we meet these two. While they seem to understand moogle-speak, Yda thinks they must be in the afterlife. They also seem rather shocked at the end of the third quest when they realise they were looking at the past with you. It suggests that they got their echo skill at about the same time you did and if they were indeed echo hopping (and that opening sequence gets really complicated if they are), then they themselves are equally unaware of it.

Later on in Futures Perfect, whichever archon you have followed tells you that they plan to find out who gave them this power. They themselves suggest that they do not know.

No, I believe the person doing the majority of the echo hopping is you.


And that brings me to a different thought. When did the members of the circle of knowing become archons? Are they really incarnations of the Twelve in the flesh like the archons of yore, or did they simply choose to adopt the title for the purpose of progressing their cause? Their cause being the unification of the city states against the impending threats.

for me it did not seem like they got it at the same time you did. They seem part of a bigger picture seeing how they have powers that most people not seen like the Miqo'te from the boat doing the shield that def you in the LL opening and everyone seem very shocked about that type of magic. Even tho we don't see what yda and papalymo can do we can think they can do something just like the miqo'te and the Hyur from ul'dah. They also all have the same tattoo which make me wish they got more into that storyline. I hoping in 2.0 we learn more about all 4 of them and what they all about.

[Catapult]

for me it did not seem like they got it at the same time you did. They seem part of a bigger picture seeing how they have powers that most people not seen like the Miqo'te from the boat doing the shield that def you in the LL opening and everyone seem very shocked about that type of magic. Even tho we don't see what yda and papalymo can do we can think they can do something just like the miqo'te and the Hyur from ul'dah. They also all have the same tattoo which make me wish they got more into that storyline. I hoping in 2.0 we learn more about all 4 of them and what they all about.

6 of them. Let's not forget Louisoix or Urianger.

[Anonymoose]

6 of them. Let's not forget Louisoix or Urianger.

7 if you count the tale of Rhalgr's archon, Ahldbhar. Edited my above post to respond to your newest theory cogwrenches

EDIT:
Keep in mind that the Archons, including Urianger by name are known to be involved with the other eras. What are the possibilities for this?

Perhaps they're echo jumpers in the future jumping into multiple ERAS of the past, and we're seeing it from a point of view that looks like thousands of years when it's really just their own lifetime in the future...

Perhaps this gave them the appearance of agelessness, thus an association with The Gods... perhaps it's true... or perhaps they, themselves, inspired the stories of The Twelve in the first place...

I'm sure I'll get to that when I get to those cutscenes. I'm on Toll of the Warden, lol

EDIT 2:
The Opening Battle Rethought
So we were focused on the Midlander... but what of the Battle of Silvertear Skies?
I was too focused on the other things to pay attention to this earlier, but Midgardsormr is a word Nordic in origin that means Midgard Sperpent, thus World Serpent. This is the title of Jormungandr, who would die as the world ended in Ragnarok (Renewal of the Gods).

In the Nordic tales, Jormungandr's final battle is with Thor (name meaning Thunder), who defeats him at the cost of his own life. This is what we see with the Empire's warship - The Agrius. The name of the imperial ship is a little more difficult to pin - but I'm going with the Latin root (for obvious reasons) ager, which means field. Taking this noun and adding the adjective suffix -ius would make its name mean something the lines of "of the fields" or "Wild" (Savage?).

What we're seeing may very well be the START of Raknarok - the renewal of the gods where the world is drowned in water (the great deluge that precedes the umbral era). Raknarok ENDS with the deaths of deities of that era ... especially that of Odin.

Perhaps the primals are the gods require death and renewal in our time... which lead to a few strange questions about The Twelve and the Circle of Knowing. I have some theories, but after the 11th I'll have a lot more constraints to form a theory with.

What's also interesting is the term "Ascian", (Latin: Without Shadow) a race who are interested in taking possession of "The Key," which seems to be a horn. Is this the same horn that is blown to signal the coming of Judgment Day?

Perhaps what we see in the Echo of Limsa Lominsa is the Ascians are stealing the horn and using it to begin Ragnarok! As I've shown previously, the events of Leviathan occurred long enough ago that the following have happened: Sthalmann has fallen from grace and is now a lowly pirate, the position he sought to take from the Admiral has gone to Merlwyb, who has reduced the power of pirate forces significantly, Sisipu has gone from a child to an independent, Baderon has gone from a "sprat" to the owner of the Drowning Wench... what I'm saying is that it's been years.

[Catapult]

Interesting that you should mention the horn (key).

An identical horn is seen in the opening Ul'dahn sequence, Flowers For All. It is blown by a Mammet, which turns the captive Gobbue into a such a rage that it breaks its restraints, rampages through the festival and sets off the entire sequence of events that lead to a foray into necromancy.

This timeline just got bigger.

EDIT:

It may also be safe to assume that not all "archons" left on their journey simultaneously. Yda and Papalymo could have gone first to look into Gridania's intentions surounding the Garleans (the reason they cite during the opening quests themselves) and stumbled upon a bigger picture with the echo. Thancred could have then done some investigations around the Ul'dah religious cults with early echo use on a more recent past. And lastly, Ysh'tola could have investigated some deeper roots around Limsa.

Ysh'tola also probably has the strongest mastery of the echo: She was able to echo jump into the same moment of your past 5 times without flinching. It only just occured to me how she did that.

[Anonymoose]

An identical horn is seen in the opening Ul'dahn sequence, Flowers For All.

We should have someone search Grid's cutscenes for one as well - because in a Limsa quest there's a close-up shot of the horn being used to signal the ferry to leave.

I think we're onto something!

The only problem is the timing. We know that the Ascian took the horn after the appearance of Leviathan, which we're assuming must have been after the Battle of Silvertear Skies. I know that this theory can easily be shot down with a single piece of new info, but for now, I'm going to satisfy this constraint and run with it (for the sake of exploring from as many angles as possible) by saying that The Ascian took the horn back through time with him before using it where he felt that it would be most advantageous to his goal - The Empire's invasion of Mor Dhona.

We see the Ascian arrive in a starshower, which is what we see at certain critical points in history when using The Echo. That itself could be the time-door in question.

[Catapult]

Dude, you just opened a whole new can of worms for us. ^_^

We should have someone search Grid's cutscenes for one as well - because in a Limsa quest there's a close-up shot of the horn being used to signal the ferry to leave.

I will, but we need to make sure we distinguish between a significant horn and any-old-horn. I know of two other more mundane instances off the top of my head:
- The start of the Battle for Aleport, to warn people the Kobolds are attacking.
- This dude in the Owls nest who is constantly blowing it.

[Anonymoose]

Dude, you just opened a whole new can of worms for us. ^_^

I'm gonna try to stick to the same rules I stick with when analyzing stories like Silent Hill. The theories we generate are not really to predict or complete, but to understand what tangibly exists in the proper context. I'm not suggesting that any theories I state are "what's really going on," but something that I think fits all of the constraints the story has given us so far.

If we ever accept anything that is beyond what the game states explicitly, we open the door to have it all come crashing down like a house of cards with one update to the game. Therefore, these theories should only be used to stimulate observation of the game - to see it through as many contexts as possible so we don't stick with general assumptions and have them bias our perception. The more things we can prove didn't happen, the more complete of a compendium we can build on real Eorzean lore (which is what I'm up to: a Tumblr host to side-by-side purposes of (1) a plot analysis of all that is OFFICIAL Eorzean lore, and (2) a separate, non-canon journey through it via the eyes of Anony Moose).

It's not about filling in the missing puzzle pieces, it's about making sure we've placed the pieces we have in the right spots.

That said, I still think we're onto something...

we need to make sure we distinguish between a significant horn and any-old-horn

Yeah, that's going to be the thick of it, really. I mean, obviously none of the horns in the game are going to be The Key, but that doesn't mean none of them are symbolic.

For instance, when the passenger asks us if the songstress we heard awakening us to the echo at sea wasn't "just a siren." At first we didn't even know if Siren would be in this game, but seriously, all those little references that fit are starting to add up. If we just make a list of times we see horns that look like The Key, we might begin to see a pattern of which instances of it are symbolic.

Some of the instances, like the one we see in the Limsa cutscene where it zooms RIGHT IN ON IT as Y'shtola's talking, are going to seem to have weight to them ... and some, like a moogle just hanging around playing one, probably not so much.

[Alaltus]

Have you seen The mythril eye's npc at the milvaneth sacrarium yet moose? he has a few things to say about the twelve like who worship who and such. Hes on sargatanas i dont know if the sacrarium has been emptied on your server or not.

I'm running through the grid storyline myself right now and during the Treant chase scene(at the beginning) theres a moogle music band that appear to calm it one of whom is playing a horn.

[Anonymoose]

Have you seen The mythril eye's npc at the milvaneth sacrarium yet moose? he has a few things to say about the twelve like who worship who and such. Hes on sargatanas i dont know if the sacrarium has been emptied on your server or not.

Got it! Thanks for pointing it out! It's a nice little summary combo of a lot of the released information in one place. We've got the long-form holed up here if you're looking to read more, I added a few trinkets from that reporter's speech, as well.