The growing entitlement issues of the casuals

[TheVedis]

Can't content just be difficult? Not time wasting?

I think that's the main issue.

Spending more time doesn't always make you a better player.

Difficult content =/= spending a week grinding on monsters to get an item.


Previous Final Fantasy (non mmorpg) games are difficult. You don't have to grind for a week to get an item to beat a boss. You find out strategies and do it when you think you're ready.

thats fine, we realize difficult = better
but some people are dont even want to spend ANY time at all, it almost sounds like they believe they should start at rank 50, with access to everything. And that is where the arguement is at now.

Its not about who has access to what, but some people thinking that they should be able to play for 1 hour and make the same progress someone playing for 10+ hours makes.

[Akumu]

thats fine, we realize difficult = better
but some people are dont even want to spend ANY time at all, it almost sounds like they believe they should start at rank 50, with access to everything. And that is where the arguement is at now.

Its not about who has access to what, but some people thinking that they should be able to play for 1 hour and make the same progress someone playing for 10+ hours makes.

Thevedis and others alike are missing the one problem with your views on casuals. You aren't referring to the casuals that want easy content but the small group of individuals that might want said content. Wanting huge time sinks also does not make you hardcore. Both sides have a small niche that seems to want something that isn't worth the Dev teams focus to bring this game into prosperity.

Hardcore(the niche group) wants major time sinks on almost everything so THEY can have fun.
Casual (niche group) wants easy mode [I WIN BUTTON] content.

Both sides have stronger supporters that want challenging and engaging content. Not huge time sinks or easy mode buttons since those are not the paths that create an engaging experience for the majority. Modern MMOs should not use huge time sinks or easy content to attract people. Attracting to the majority is rather simple since the grey area is very common for True Hardcore AND Casual gamers. Not just people that are lazy or have the ability to play 22hrs a day.

[TheVedis]

Thevedis and others alike is missing one problem with your views on casuals. You aren't referring to the casuals that want easy content but the small group of individuals that might want said content. Wanting huge time sinks also does not make you hardcore. Both sides have a small niche that seems to want something that isn't worth the Dev teams focus to bring this game into prosperity.

Hardcore(the niche group) wants major time sinks on almost everything so THEY can have fun.
Casual (niche group) wants easy mode [I WIN BUTTON] content.

Both sides have stronger supporters that want challenging and engaging content. Not huge time sinks or easy mode buttons since those are not the paths that create an engaging experience for the majority. Modern MMOs should not use huge time sinks or easy content to attract people. Attracting to the majority is rather simple since the grey area is very common for True Hardcore AND Casual gamers. Not just people that are lazy or the life to play 22hrs a day.

actualy, we realize what the arguement is, but look at the last few pages especialy and you will see the true face of what the hardcores are trying to avoid

a bunch of posters saying, quite specificaly, that they should be able to achieve in 1 hour, what it takes hardcores several hours to do. Purely because they dont have as much time to commit to it.

[Mishakai]

actualy, we realize what the arguement is, but look at the last few pages especialy and you will see the true face of what the hardcores are trying to avoid

a bunch of posters saying, quite specificaly, that they should be able to achieve in 1 hour, what it takes hardcores several hours to do. Purely because they dont have as much time to commit to it.

Which is why I stress equal rewards for equal time invested. If I spend 20 hours successfully killing a boss in a group and someone else spends 20 hours successfully killing a boss solo, the difficulty of which is equivalent based on group size, the item rewards should also be equivalent. It is a simple concept that, for some reason, both sides seem to want to argue against.

[TheVedis]

Which is why I stress equal rewards for equal time invested. If I spend 20 hours successfully killing a boss in a group and someone else spends 20 hours successfully killing a boss solo, the difficulty of which is equivalent based on group size, the item rewards should also be equivalent. It is a simple concept that, for some reason, both sides seem to want to argue against.

yep, in that case 20 people have to split the prize
the guy who solos it has it all to himself

[Mishakai]

yep, in that case 20 people have to split the prize
the guy who solos it has it all to himself

You are still missing my point. In the time it takes those 20 people to get a single item, the single person gets a single item.

Maybe every time to group of 20 drops a boss, a piece of gear drops and somebody gets it. When the solo player drops his boss, he gets a token. In the *average* time it takes a person in a group of 20 to get that piece of gear, the person doing his solo content has earned enough tokens for a piece of gear.

[TheVedis]

You are still missing my point. In the time it takes those 20 people to get a single item, the single person gets a single item.

Maybe every time to group of 20 drops a boss, a piece of gear drops and somebody gets it. When the solo player drops his boss, he gets a token. In the *average* time it takes a person in a group of 20 to get that piece of gear, the person doing his solo content has earned enough tokens for a piece of gear.

nah, thats not an idea i can get behind
it almost feels like youd be punishing the solo player in that case

this isnt about seperating how content is done, and thats what you are saying there

[Kaedan]

Which is why I stress equal rewards for equal time invested. If I spend 20 hours successfully killing a boss in a group and someone else spends 20 hours successfully killing a boss solo, the difficulty of which is equivalent based on group size, the item rewards should also be equivalent. It is a simple concept that, for some reason, both sides seem to want to argue against.

As long as [effort input] = [reward output], there shouldn't be a problem. A person playing solo should not be able to get the same reward that it takes a full group to get. Should they eventually be able to get it? Sure. But the effort has to be equal and balanced.

For example: You have an encounter that drops a sweet piece of gear. It takes a group to defeat said encounter. The drop rate is such that it would take the group roughly 8 hours to get everyone in the group the item.

Now, since a solo player can't defeat it, you create another avenue. You create another item (with the same stats) that can be "bought" with guild points. But in order to farm the guild points for said item, it takes about 8 hours.

In this case, both sides are putting in equal effort. I suppose you could say that the group is putting in more, since you have to organize the party and everything though... in which case you might require 9 hours of effort for the solo.


EDIT: Alternatively, you could lower the time it takes solo by a bit, to account for the fact that some people are getting the item soon, and there might be groups that only need to get 1 or 2 people the item. In which case, you could require the Solo to farm for 4 hours (half the time, but no chance of getting it "right away").

[Akumu]

actualy, we realize what the arguement is, but look at the last few pages especialy and you will see the true face of what the hardcores are trying to avoid

a bunch of posters saying, quite specificaly, that they should be able to achieve in 1 hour, what it takes hardcores several hours to do. Purely because they dont have as much time to commit to it.

You do have points that I do agree with. I am all for challenging content that might take some hours to do. However I am not for huge time sinks that can be easily avoided all together. True gamers in general(hardcore or casual) does not just want things handed to them but earned.
Most Casual gamers would rather use their time efficiently and progress without unnecessary time sinks. For example getting a group together is a time sink but understandable. Getting a group together and standing around in one spot waiting for something you MIGHT get is not efficient.

I would rather be strategically fighting mobs on a constantly changing battlefield for 3 hours instead of waiting around for 3hours to get 1 mob or item to pop up.

[Abriael]

a bunch of posters saying, quite specificaly, that they should be able to achieve in 1 hour, what it takes hardcores several hours to do. Purely because they dont have as much time to commit to it.

Not really. That's a misconstruction of the argument. All the arguments I've read are never about allowing the casual to get rewards in LESS time than the hardcore. They're about allowing EVERYONE to get rewards without having to be subject to massively boring and mindnumbing timesinks.