If SE is taking away my hard work...

[Alhanelem]

It might help our understanding of the problem if SE published a breakdown of Gil holdings of various players. Let us see how many people have holdings in the 900,000,000 to 999,999,999 range, 8000,000,000 to 899,999,999 range ect. Let us see if there in an inordinate number of people in the upper brackets. If there is then, just maybe, there is a justification to this partial Gil wipe.

Even if there is SEs current planned server setup does not justify a 90% reduction for everyone. The only way a 90% reduction can be justified is if we were being allowed to join any server of our choice. That way new players would not be placed at an extreme disadvantage relative to existing players.As it is we are being restricted to existing servers with existing players and existing economies. Depending on how SE plans to construct Gil making opportunities there will still exist a disparity between people at the high end of Gil holding and those at the low end. If the breakdown of holdings justify it then cap the max holdings at launch to 99,999,999 but let everyone keep what they earned up to that point, as originally promised. Anyway you go this is still a poorly disguised partial Gil wipe.

This is NOT a "gil wipe." nor is it disguised as one. It's called "Redenomination" and has been used throughout our history to keep the numbers that people work with on a day to day basis reasonable- This is usually done when a currency reaches a certain low value due to inflation. Redenomination makes it so you don't need to bring a wheelbarrow full of cash to the market to buy a loaf of bread. And honestly, with the current value of gil, it kind of feels like that. This change makes complete sense, does not take away any of your buying power and I fully support it. ** IT IS NOT A GIL WIPE! **

[Rizon]

This is NOT a "gil wipe." nor is it disguised as one. It's called "Redenomination" and has been used throughout our history to keep the numbers that people work with on a day to day basis reasonable- This is usually done when a currency reaches a certain low value due to inflation. Redenomination makes it so you don't need to bring a wheelbarrow full of cash to the market to buy a loaf of bread. And honestly, with the current value of gil, it kind of feels like that. This change makes complete sense, does not take away any of your buying power and I fully support it. ** IT IS NOT A GIL WIPE! **

So, are you telling me that SE is going to establish their own version of the Federal Reserve Board and other regulatory agencies to keep the economy in check. If not then we are destined to repeat the cycle over and over again.

[Alhanelem]

So, are you telling me that SE is going to establish their own version of the Federal Reserve Board and other regulatory agencies to keep the economy in check. If not then we are destined to repeat the cycle over and over again.

What I'm telling you is this:

The amount of money the system creates and the amount it removes through gil sinks are also scaled porportionally in the same amount that our own gil is being changed by. Thus, value is coming in and out of the system at the same rate it was before (note the word "value"- it's important). Because of this, it won't be realistically possible for people to charge substantially differently without preventing people from being able to buy, and thereby forcing them to adjust their prices until people ARE willing to buy. You, the buyer, have a lot of power to speak with your wallet and prevent any significant economic change from taking place.

Because the demand for some items will change (because a lot of items are being changed/added/removed from the game), no, prices are not going to be exactly the same as they were before. But they already varied a lot from one server to the next and with rising and falling needs. So while some things will change, there isn't going to be some kind of economic cataclysm like some people here are hypthoesizing.

[viion]

What I'm telling you is this:

The amount of money the system creates and the amount it removes through gil sinks are also scaled porportionally in the same amount that our own gil is being changed by. Thus, value is coming in and out of the system at the same rate it was before (note the word "value"- it's important). Because of this, it won't be realistically possible for people to charge substantially differently without preventing people from being able to buy, and thereby forcing them to adjust their prices until people ARE willing to buy. You, the buyer, have a lot of power to speak with your wallet and prevent any significant economic change from taking place.

Because the demand for some items will change (because a lot of items are being changed/added/removed from the game), no, prices are not going to be exactly the same as they were before. But they already varied a lot from one server to the next and with rising and falling needs. So while some things will change, there isn't going to be some kind of economic cataclysm like some people here are hypthoesizing.

Hugely missing the point, no one is saying there is going to be a cataclysm effect, in fact a 20% loss is very minimal.

Many gil sinks do not affect many players such as Chocobo, Repairs, Airships, etc. Not to mention we have been told they're only 1/10th now so they not exactly sinking much. 500g gone is nothing to my 15m i will have in 2.0

Now, prices will attempt to be high at the start, and gradually decrease LIKE YOU SAID, but the argument here, the prediction I am making is that they will NOT go to 1/10th.

Thus the set of X items you could get in 1.0, you have an unlikely chance to be able to purchase for 1/10th in 2.0, that is my prediction here, this is a prediction argument.

Read the threads, this has been repeated.

I'm sorry, but I'm not confused- you clearly seem to be though, because you say yourself you don't understand.

Keep telling yourself it's a "gil wipe" though. If it was really a gil wipe, they'd set us all to 0 and not scale gil produced/destroyed and vendor prices.

You clearly have no understanding whatsoever of economics. I highly reccomend you take Macroeonomics in college and then maybe you might understand what I'm trying to tell you.

Yoshi P knows what he is doing. He is not trying to screw anyone over or take your money away. He is simply making a system wide adjustment to the economy. He is not being some kind of jerk or something. People are panicking over nothing.

If they set to 0, people stock in items because everything is a loss, and then they are not needing to buy so much, the reason they have done 10% is to reduce it significantly but not so much it hurts the players and a lot of people will buy into the misleading statements Yoshi has stated. Which is clearly working!

If you are going to try insult my education and say I clearly have not done economics when I can easily say the thing about you, then I am not even going to argue with you because it seems you rage too easily.

[Alhanelem]

Hugely missing the point, no one is saying there is going to be a cataclysm effect, in fact a 20% loss is very minimal.

Many gil sinks do not affect many players such as Chocobo, Repairs, Airships, etc. Not to mention we have been told they're only 1/10th now so they not exactly sinking much. 500g gone is nothing to my 15m i will have in 2.0

Now, prices will attempt to be high at the start, and gradually decrease LIKE YOU SAID, but the argument here, the prediction I am making is that they will NOT go to 1/10th.

Thus the set of X items you could get in 1.0, you have an unlikely chance to be able to purchase for 1/10th in 2.0, that is my prediction here, this is a prediction argument.

Read the threads, this has been repeated.



If they set to 0, people stock in items because everything is a loss, and then they are not needing to buy so much, the reason they have done 10% is to reduce it significantly but not so much it hurts the players and a lot of people will buy into the misleading statements Yoshi has stated. Which is clearly working!

If you are going to try insult my education and say I clearly have not done economics when I can easily say the thing about you, then I am not even going to argue with you because it seems you rage too easily.

The prices will settle at whatever price that is sustainable given the amount of gil and the system and each person's own willingness to pay. It's pointless to even hypothesize exactly what percentage of the original price you think things will go to, because when the economy starts back up in 2.0, the demand for tons of items is going to change. Some items will go away (arrows), some items will be needed less, others will be needed more. The economy will gradually stabalize over time. It may prove benefiical to be conservative initially, but beyond that, nobody needs to take any special action to influence the economy. It will settle on its own.

Yes, by the way, I'm fully aware it's been talked about before. THere's been like a dozen threads on this topic- but in most of them except this one, people have come to grips with the fact that the effect this change has on people is not what some people are worrying it will be. For some reason, in this one, the panic is back in full force and people like the OP are calling it a "wipe" when it isnt.

[viion]

Say there is no gil redenomination, will Vanya still be worth 2m after ARR comes? Will Militia Choker still be worth 8m?
You're assuming these are the set prices while the prices are purely driven by players' supply and demand.

The redemoniation will not immediately make sellers price their goods at 1/10 of the old pricing. But these prices will be adjusted soon enough if the sellers actually want to sell stuff. If buying power stays the same, you don't have to worry much about the price changes. If there are price changes, it will not be caused by the redenomination instead it's going to be caused by the supply and demand and ARR changes.

I am not assuming they are set in stone, I assuming they wont have a % increase in 2.0.

if Choker at 8m goes to 4m instead of 800k it has had a 50% increase to its relation of reduction. Your argument would be valid if you said that the 8m choker went UP by 50% in 2.0 to 12m, then it would be considered the same.

If nothing changed and nothing happened, and we went into 2.0 with equality then that be all fine, but we are being reduced, an item is not and has gained value at the % higher than 10. And you assume people will not buy stuff at prices higher than 1/10th of the value, inflation has proven this incorrect, and you dont know if people will or not, just like i dont know if it will reduce or not, so what i am saying is a prediction, if you predict people will not pay anything above 1/10th thats gravy, but it doesn't seem like you're predicting it, more like insisting that will happen as you've not stated you assume or predict the way people act.

That's the whole point though, we really just "don't know". Nothing is a sure bet.

Right.... and? This whole argument is about what I predict, I never once said anything is a sure bet, I never once said I know this will happen, I said countless times that I will predict "this will happen" because of "this and this and this" and people are like THAT WONT HAPPEN, im sorry but it is a possibility, it is something that could happen. You might not think it will, but I think it could.

As I said earlier, it could very well be that prices go to 1/20th of their value and you become richer in that area because you can buy twice as many now. Relics could become 1m each and u could buy 3 of them. Its a possibility that could very well happen, but I do not believe it will, thats my opinion.

The prices will settle at whatever price that is sustainable given the amount of gil and the system and each person's own willingness to pay. It's pointless to even hypothesize exactly what percentage of the original price you think things will go to, because when the economy starts back up in 2.0, the demand for tons of items is going to change. Some items will go away (arrows), some items will be needed less, others will be needed more. The economy will gradually stabalize over time. It may prove benefiical to be conservative initially, but beyond that, nobody needs to take any special action to influence the economy. It will settle on its own.

Yes, by the way, I'm fully aware it's been talked about before. THere's been like a dozen threads on this topic- but in most of them except this one, people have come to grips with the fact that the effect this change has on people is not what some people are worrying it will be. For some reason, in this one, the panic is back in full force and people like the OP are calling it a "wipe" when it isnt.

Well argue the OP about the word "Wipe", my wording is a "Loss". I am saying we are going to loose some Gil, if you dont believe that that is your belief, you can throw all the facts at me all day long and I will throw many back at you.

The economy will stabilize and this will all be moot, but I predict it will not stabilize at 1/10th, thus I have had to earn more to get to that stabilized economy. I reckon, with MY OWN predictions it will stabilize higher.

If you actually bothered to read this thread you would realise it is mainly this debate with me that is going on and no one is freaking out. You would have realised this, if you read the thread, you'd also not post stuff which has already been touched on several times.

[Vindrax]

Right.... and? This whole argument is about what I predict, I never once said anything is a sure bet, I never once said I know this will happen, I said countless times that I will predict "this will happen" because of "this and this and this" and people are like THAT WONT HAPPEN, im sorry but it is a possibility, it is something that could happen. You might not think it will, but I think it could.

As I said earlier, it could very well be that prices go to 1/20th of their value and you become richer in that area because you can buy twice as many now. Relics could become 1m each and u could buy 3 of them. Its a possibility that could very well happen, but I do not believe it will, thats my opinion.

Oh don't get me wrong I definitely assume that there will be specific items that gain value, probably significant value. But these gains in value are going to almost entirely come from gameplay mechanics changes, instead of the redenomination of gil. I just don't want people to come in and read your post and liquidate their gil thinking that it's better to have a stockpile of items going into ARR then gil. Because it's not true, and take an extreme risk in doing so, as nobody knows exactly which items are going to be valuable (and this is why SE cautions players as such).

Gil will be the one constant that will carry over into the new economy and will retain its value 100%. In terms of the market, this game is all about relative wealth of players, and that will not change with the redenomination of gil. Anyone that benefits monetarily from stockpiling items will be the lucky ones that happened to pick the items/materials that are needed in increased demand in ARR, nothing more, nothing less. And since neither you, nor anyone else knows which items those will be, I just want to caution readers to not follow in your path, unless they are potentailly willing to risk losing vast amounts of wealth.

This is very much like playing the stock market, except we have no real way to predict future values. As the one poster noted Electrum Ingots, who knows, Electrum ore could be dropping off every high level mob for all we know (or crafting recipes changed that drastically reduce the amount of ingots necessary). You are extremely confident in your view, which is fine, but there are a number of posters that clearly don't understand the effect of this gil redenomination and my fear is they do something they are going to regret later, because they panic'ed when they saw they're losing 9/10ths of their gil.

[VanillaLatte]

I am not assuming they are set in stone, I assuming they wont have a % increase in 2.0.

if Choker at 8m goes to 4m instead of 800k it has had a 50% increase to its relation of reduction. Your argument would be valid if you said that the 8m choker went UP by 50% in 2.0 to 12m, then it would be considered the same.

If nothing changed and nothing happened, and we went into 2.0 with equality then that be all fine, but we are being reduced, an item is not and has gained value at the % higher than 10. And you assume people will not buy stuff at prices higher than 1/10th of the value, inflation has proven this incorrect, and you dont know if people will or not, just like i dont know if it will reduce or not, so what i am saying is a prediction, if you predict people will not pay anything above 1/10th thats gravy, but it doesn't seem like you're predicting it, more like insisting that will happen as you've not stated you assume or predict the way people act.

First of all, inflation is also part of the supply and demand. It doesn't just happen because it happens. (monies being printed everyday)

If the choker is 8m and goes to 4m instead of 800k when ARR comes, it just means the choker is worth more and more valuable to people in ARR, whether it's because the stats become more valuable because of ARR changes or choker becomes harder to obtain, etc. It will not be caused by the redenomination. (Obviously there will be suckers buying over-priced stuff during the initial ARR release time frame when people are still getting used to the new currency).

On the contrary, choker can well become 100k just because there are items with similar or better stats coming in ARR and easier to obtain.

One thing we're pretty certain about is ARR will not be the same as 1.0, meaning there won't be this equality thing. New recipes will be introduced and existing ones may change, new drops will be introduced in dungeons, more end game content means more variety of items, etc... will be the factors that influence the market prices in ARR.

[Rizon]

The prices will settle at whatever price that is sustainable given the amount of gil and the system and each person's own willingness to pay. It's pointless to even hypothesize exactly what percentage of the original price you think things will go to, because when the economy starts back up in 2.0, the demand for tons of items is going to change. Some items will go away (arrows), some items will be needed less, others will be needed more. The economy will gradually stabalize over time. It may prove benefiical to be conservative initially, but beyond that, nobody needs to take any special action to influence the economy. It will settle on its own.

Yes, by the way, I'm fully aware it's been talked about before. THere's been like a dozen threads on this topic- but in most of them except this one, people have come to grips with the fact that the effect this change has on people is not what some people are worrying it will be. For some reason, in this one, the panic is back in full force and people like the OP are calling it a "wipe" when it isnt.

I think the basic problem here is that you are confusing the real world economies with SE economy. In the real world governments take an active part in regulating their economies in order to ensure the very things you are talking about. As such the arguments you make would be very valid. Unfortunately SE has always taken a hands off approach in regards to the economy. Therefore Gil will always enter the economy at a rate far greater then its removal. Gil sinks and the such will have little or no effect. You will always have people who will spend every playing hour trying to corner the market in goods forcing people to spend large amounts of time just trying to make Gil to keep up. Please look up SEs history in this matter. It has always been the case with them. Til they make an idealogical shift in their thinking you will always have a problem of too much currency available. SEs current tactic of revaluation (as you wish to call it) is just a half hearted effort to redefine the starting point.

[Alhanelem]

I think the basic problem here is that you are confusing the real world economies with SE economy. In the real world governments take an active part in regulating their economies in order to ensure the very things you are talking about. As such the arguments you make would be very valid. Unfortunately SE has always taken a hands off approach in regards to the economy. Therefore Gil will always enter the economy at a rate far greater then its removal. Gil sinks and the such will have little or no effect. You will always have people who will spend every playing hour trying to corner the market in goods forcing people to spend large amounts of time just trying to make Gil to keep up. Please look up SEs history in this matter. It has always been the case with them. Til they make an idealogical shift in their thinking you will always have a problem of too much currency available. SEs current tactic of revaluation (as you wish to call it) is just a half hearted effort to redefine the starting point.

The problem is real world economies and "SE" or any video game eoconomies are really not much different. You can look at any economy in any game or any place on earth and the basic core principles are the same.