If SE is taking away my hard work...

[viion]

But thing is, I really don't see how that constitutes as us 'losing gil'. If the prices change, that is due to the value of that particular item changing because of their changed needs in the new world. Your prediction is correct, but what about potential items that will drop to 1/20th their price because they are no longer needed? We can look at those and say that we're gaining gil....but I don't see how that works either, because they remain in relative value. So I don't particular get how the value of certain items become higher causes us to lose gil.

If you cant understand that then you will never understand it, or you view what is a loss/gain differently than I do, then the whole argument is redundant, because to me it sounds like you are saying that if an item only goes down to 30% of its value, then it doesn't matter because that is its "worth" value and that in 1.0 it would of increased by 130%, I do not see it like that. The way I see it is "Before I could buy 1, Now I cant buy 1, only 1/3rd of the item". Thats how I see it.

Go back and reread your posts and count the times you claim your predictions are fact. If people aren't understanding your posts its because you aren't portraying your point accurately.

But really... the meat of the argument is that you believe prices will have a relative uptrend because of the redenomination. I wish there was a nicer way that I could explain how that is a very narrow view, but there really isn't. I concede that there is potential for your prediction to occur. I just don't think you understand how big of a scale the game economies have.

The point you keep trying to make is flawed because it depends on either a monopoly occurring or everyone else being kind of dim.

People will pay what they are willing to pay. That will always be true. For absolutely everyone in 2.0 to suddenly be willing to pay 2-5 times what they pay for items now is an incredibly slim chance. And of the numerous factors that go in to establishing what an item is worth at any given time, the price people ask for it is really one of the smallest. Because for any item worth selling and every person trying to sell it there will be atleast one more person trying to sell theirs first.

Some items may end up worth significantly more in 2.0 than they are in 1.0 But really... what will dictate that won't be the few gougers out there, it will be the demand for the item weighted by it's current supply.

And to finish up. In the medium of text, context is very hard to read. If you are reading my posts as overly hostile, that probably has more to do with you projecting that upon the text.

It's hard not to feel attacked when someone disagrees with you. I understand, sometimes I get carried away, too. But really the only points I've tried to make is mostly that your arguments are kinda on the weak side, and your predictions seem excessively pessimistic.

there is a high chance they have "unforeseen" something that players find

If the general pricing of items on the Wards do not ALSO go down to 1/10th

And you do not know how difficult it is to obtain currency in ARR yet so you do not know if it will be just as easy or not, even if its only half as hard, you'd be earning 50% what now and lost 40%.

How do you know this? How do you know how difficult it will be to obtain gil?

And if someone finds an easy way of making money

am not saying it is fact that items will not be at 1/10th, I am saying its UNLIKELY, I do not see it happening, based on my arguments.

I could go on with the countless times when I have stated, if, or how do you know.

Facts I have stated

people should take solace in is the fact that everyone is in the same boat

to deny the fact that you will be losing Gil

If an item becomes 11% its value, you have LOST ONE PERCENT of wealth, that is fact.

^ Thats maths.

have the fact that people will spend considerably more for items than their original value, 200-300 sometimes 400% more.

Was pointed out with Materia, we have seen this.

In ARR, you will be able to earn Gil? Fact, will people earn it? Yes i assume so, so that is Fact that global wealth will increase.

I am fairly sure you can earn Gil in ARR...

What is fact is, if you take your 10m to 1m, then an item at 10m goes to 5m, you have lost 4m (if this happens to every single item in the game). That is fact, its common Math

YOU might not consider this as a LOSS, I DO. Because over night I am now unable to purchase 1/5th of an item I used to be able to easily purchase.

Dont tell me to go look at my posts when you're not even listening to what I am saying..

You say my arguments are weak, Why are yours not weak? I have stated why they are... but we go into this circle of debating over and over. I don't think you have any solid grounds, just like you don't think I do. Just gotta accept that.

The point you keep trying to make is flawed because it depends on either a monopoly occurring or everyone else being kind of dim.

Yours is flawed for the exact opposite reason, you don't expect people to price high, you expect everyone to be nice and play even, i just don't think that is going to happen... Especially with plenty of new players coming in.

I don't feel attacked when someone disagrees with me, almost 4k posts I have had plenty of people disagree with me over so many things. Sometimes im right, sometimes im not, not important. I do feel attacked when their is an ahat pointing and laughing at peoples comments to illustrate their stupidity and then saying "hey amma do that to you! I will point and laugh at your words because your stupid!". I can take it, i just find it quite pathetic and it completely ruins what you're trying to achieve because i'm not going to take you seriously (not so much you Ferth..)

[Buddhsie]

This thread just reeks of stupid.

lol @ viion on page 2/3.

[viion]

This thread just reeks of stupid.

lol @ viion on page 2/3.

Glad we have a mature one here...

[Punainen]

I don't think Ward prices will ever drop to a tenth of their current, and THAT bugs me about the redenomination, but...prices will never go BACK to what they were pre-2.0... Because gil will be 10 times harder to earn in the first place.

[Buddhsie]

Glad we have a mature one here...

lol @ viion on page 15 too.

[Ferth]

If an item becomes 11% its value, you have LOST ONE PERCENT of wealth, that is fact.
^ Thats maths.

The point I've made numerous times and you have actually tried to use as well. The value of items are already fluctuating. Do you consider yourself having gained wealth when an item you sell occasionally suddenly jumps up in price? Do you consider yourself losing wealth when an item you occasionally sell drops in price? Do you consider yourself losing wealth when an item you occasionally buy goes up in price? Do you consider yourself gaining wealth when an item you occasionally buy drops in price?

These occurrences already happen. They aren't something you can blame on the redenomination. I have to say this over and over again because you seem to keep insisting that they some how do. That makes your argument weak. Since the inverse is true, it can't effectively argue for either direction.

Let's use a hypothetical situation. To be clear, none of what I am about to say will probably happen.

Let's say that in 2.0 they release a recipe for a new level 50 sword that can be used by paladins and gladiators. The recipe has a similar cost in items to make as the level 49 cobalt winglet but in every stat it is better. Because of this new item the value of cobalt winglets will plummet, because the value plummets, the supply will dwindle as people move to making the new swords and stop making the cobalt winglet. In this situation the value of winglets will drop because the demand for the item drops.

Now let's use another hypothetical situation. And for the sake of simplicity we will use cobalt winglets again. Right now it takes 2 cobalt ingots to make a winglet (and a few other items.) Cobalt ingots can be earned in level 45-50 blacksmithing leves or they can be mined rather easily by level 50 miners. (let's use the hypothetical situation of a level 50 miner getting about a stack of cobalt ingots in an hour which can then be turned into 50 ingots.)

Now let's pretend that when 2.0 comes around leves no longer reward cobalt ingots and the rate for miners drops down to 1/4th of a stack in an hour. Because cobalt has become significantly more rare the price for nuggets goes up, which causes the price for ingots to go up which causes the price for cobalt winglets to go up. Again we have a value change for the item that has absolutely nothing to do with the redenomination.

Another point that has been mentioned numerous times in this thread is that the value of items in 2.0 will be set by their supply and demand within the 2.0 economy. Those factors are set by so many more things than the value of the gil used to buy it.

Furthermore trying to hold up current values as reference points for values in 2.0 is a flawed argument because the values of the items will change based on their position in the new game. The redenomination is going to be a very small factor in 2.0 prices.

This is not really a debate that is going on. You don't seem to recognize anyone's view but your own. You feel like you are beating your head against a wall? That's because you are. But the wall is in your mind, and it represents your own close-mindedness.

I do actually understand the point you are making. I have actually stated your points several times. If I have portrayed them inaccurately, by all means correct them.

Part of a debate is being able to present your own views in an understandable manner. The other part is being able to take the opposing views and disseminate them. You haven't done either. You just keep repeating your flawed arguments and shouting "YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND!"

[Punainen]

I thought it was against the rules to predict stuff here? I am pretty sure there will be Gil sinks, just as I'm sure SE have thought about every little thing and avoided possible money making schemes.



Jesus lmao, I am not saying the situation is fact, I am saying the Math is fact.

The FACT: If item prices reduce only 1/5th of what they are now, you've lost a 4th of your gil, WEATHER THIS WILL HAPPEN OR NOT IS NOT FACT, THE AMOUNT LOST IS.

Please say you understand this, Nothing of what I am saying is saying what will happen is fact, my facts are the illustration of past events which HAVE happened, and that IF situation X Happens, THE FACT is you lost Y money on that situation. No where am I saying the situation will happen, I PREDICT it will happen.

Let me repeat...

IF the situation, where items do not reduce down to the same ratio of gil reduction, you are losing money. The situation MAY or MAY NOT happen, I never said that is fact. IF the situation occurs that items do not reduce to 1/10th ever, you have lost money.

I agree. Its a basic issue of the human condition. People are greedy. People used to raking in millions will still want to have the feel of the large numbers and will try to rake in large numbers. A lot of people (obviously not all, but a lot) base what is 'expensive' or not based on how large the number looks in comparison to how badly they want the item.

If the number on the screen makes NO difference, WHY re-denominate at all?? And its a basic fact of economies everywhere... When money becomes more scarce, prices don't drop, in fact they go UP. If money is plentiful, they may also go up, but it wont hold the same sting as the rise in price when money is short. Because when money is short, people want to make more, faster, because the buyer may be short, but so is the seller.

The seller will take as much as possible from the buyer, ALWAYS. There is absolutely NOTHING in psychology (nor economics for that matter) that would predict a likelihood that player controlled prices will drop to 1/10th... And when and if they do not, we will have all lost substantial buying power.

I again, present the question...if they really don't expect buying power to change....WHY are they changing it?? There is literally no upside to the re-denomination. Best case scenario is nothing changes. Worst case scenario is massive inflation. So why do it??

[Ferth]

The one countering point I can make to that position, Punainen, is that items are not going to be a straight conversion from 1.0 supplies and demands to 2.0 supplies and demands.

Whether prices ever come close to the 1/10th relative ratio standard is really immaterial because the value for those items will depend solely on their place in the 2.0 economy. They really won't have any relation to 1.0 pricing beyond coincidence. Some items may be worth more some items may be worth less... some might even miraculously hit that 1/10th mark but after the first week... the first month... the first year... the price for every item will be where the 2.0 economy places it, and it will have absolutely no link to the value items used to have in 1.0.

The redenomination is going to have far less of an impact than you think it will.

and to viion:

The point you keep trying to make is flawed because it depends on either a monopoly occurring or everyone else being kind of dim.

Yours is flawed for the exact opposite reason, you don't expect people to price high, you expect everyone to be nice and play even, i just don't think that is going to happen... Especially with plenty of new players coming in.

I made no such assertions with my argument. None whatsoever. My argument is based on the belief that the economy in 2.0 will function like every economy everywhere.

At the start of 2.0 prices may indeed be exorbitantly high. But when the economy has time to stabilize I doubt they will remain so. Not because of gum drops and rainbows and hippie love-ins. But because of how economies work. Because when the price doesn't fit the demand for an item it won't stay there. The people you are afraid of may sell a few of their over priced items at first, but I would be absolutely amazed if the prices used in the first week of 2.0 persist passed the first month.

[WHS]

I think taking away our money is sneaky bullshit to compensate for a retarded game setup to begin with. You said Yoshi you would not take anything away from us when we go to 2.0 and now you revoke your promise and steal our money. I dont care you set npc sell values to 1/10, i don't buy off npc I buy off the market and it hurts to have my money taken away. I only live on about 4 to 7mil period from time to time. I don't have and have never had 999 mil. This is a stupid mistake and If I find in 2.0 I can't live because you took my money I and as many ppl as I can take with me will leave your game for good. I will open a webpage and campaign players away from you. While ppl in this thread might support your stealing our gil I am sure a fair number of silent gamers will not. I bet you will feel what you are doing to us. I for one will never trust you or any dev again if you do go ahead and steal my money. I am not rich but I can make a living for now. I don't see how I will in this new steal my money game you invision. My wife and kids all play this with me and as we try to make some money this weak all they do is let me know how it hurts them for you stealing their money. I have tried to convince them it won't be this bad but man I am having a hard time believing that myself.

[viion]

The point I've made numerous times and you have actually tried to use as well. The value of items are already fluctuating. Do you consider yourself having gained wealth when an item you sell occasionally suddenly jumps up in price? Do you consider yourself losing wealth when an item you occasionally sell drops in price? Do you consider yourself losing wealth when an item you occasionally buy goes up in price? Do you consider yourself gaining wealth when an item you occasionally buy drops in price?

Not bothering to reply to it all because I will repeat myself, like you are repeating yourself. There is no point to this debate because you are not going to change my view and I will not accept I am wrong when I believe how something will turn out. You might as well tell the pope that god doesnt exist...

If ALL items in 1.0 over night went to 2x their price, yes I would be considered less wealthy, everyone would.
If ALL items in 1.0 over night went to 0.5x their, yes I would be considered more wealthy, everyone would.

If you have 1m in 1.0 and over night all items jump to 3m from 1m, you are not wealthy, you are not as rich as you were, that is my belief, and how I will argue, if you think that is stupid or wrong, then thats your opinion, you are not going to change how I think or see things.

but I would be absolutely amazed if the prices used in the first week of 2.0 persist passed the first month.

I thought you was so sure it wouldnt? I predict it will last longer than the first week and the longer it lasts, the more gil is put into the economy that then makes the reducing scale of an item balance out faster.

You might not believe it will be happen and be absolutely amazed if it does, I however believe it has a very good possibility, I am not WRONG to have that belief of what I think will happen.