Stop the Grind-to-the-Endgame madness!

[Shurrikhan]

And, if those systems were added on top of already additional systems, would you be as upset?

You can grind for EXP. You can Quest for EXP, you can Raid for EXP. It sounds like he's jut creating options for people and that there's finally sufficient reward for those who prefer to spend their time out adventuring rather than hitting up the same monster types again and again. I mean, that's ok if that's your thing, but for too long other methods have been inefficient for leveling purposes.

Yoshi makes a presumption for what players will be doing in the game, but by no means dose he think 100% of the playerbase will follow the formula. It's a statistical impossibility.

So then I guess the question becomes, given limited and shared resources, what is the quality methodology in adding content: covering the largest percentage of the playerbase for a content any-way-you-like community or really acing some key aspects? What lines of thought might make the most out of those resources?

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Edit: Though this is probably obvious from most posts I've written, I would never suggest a sheer cost-efficiency mindset for ideas made on the forums, especially since making ideas would normally cost SE time (and therefore money) but is here free.

[Hyrist]

So then I guess the question becomes, given limited and shared resources, what is the quality methodology in adding content: covering the largest percentage of the playerbase for a content any-way-you-like community or really acing some key aspects? What lines of thought might make the most out of those resources?

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Edit: Though this is probably obvious from most posts I've written, I would never suggest a sheer cost-efficiency mindset for ideas made on the forums, especially since making ideas would normally cost SE time (and therefore money) but is here free.

Why settle for either one? Why not land both?

You may excuse me for a bit of naievty here, but I'm not speaking my view, I'm speaking Yoshida's. He's set out to make "the best mmo" that means both nailing down the content, AND appealing to the wide aduiance. Can he pull it off? I don't bleive so, but if he makes great strides in the attempt, and the game is better for it, then I am not going to push against that approach.

World of Warcraft hit its success coming after FFXI, which came out at the trailing edge of the Everquest era of MMOs. However, if market is any indication, we're now at the trailing edge of WoW's MMO era. We have the advantage to look at other MMOs, see what was done right, what was done wrong, and what hasn't been done - and that's a great place to be when you're completely remaking a game that already has a small established fan base.

Yoshida's policy is pretty clear here - he's not setteling for less. He, however foolish the idea may be cost wise, is fully intending on keeping his entire crew after redevelopment to continually crank out new content and systems after 2.0 launch. The content updates we've been given these past six months have been handed to us by a mere fraction of the full team. And the remaining people on the team has been working tirelessly on a gaming engine that is better both for players and for them to continue development with.

If Yoshi is intending on keeping that crew even after redevelopment, I don't think cost efficiency is in his venue here.

If I was taking a guess, he wants to create a wide berth of systems to cover as many playstyles as he can get, and then develop upon them in a way that keeps the players interested, as well as encouraging people to experiment around with the differing systems of the game.

We'll see how it pans out. I'm skeptical of his ability to maintain the momentum he has. But my faith in the man's vision? Rock solid. He's downright ambitious and idealistic to boot - my kind of guy. He well knows that this game can be his golden ticket to video game fame, or the shackles that will always make him a laughing stock of the industry. With that kind of pressure, you don't sleep much, and you must definitely do not pull your punches.

He might get knocked around by his superiors and have some of his people taken away form him, which will slow down his progress, but it won't stop him. I've no doubt that Yoshi-P will not stop until he's made a game that we are continually delighted and amazed over, or someone pulls the plug on him while he's trying.

[Nazrakin]

Why settle for either one? Why not land both?

You may excuse me for a bit of naievty here, but I'm not speaking my view, I'm speaking Yoshida's. He's set out to make "the best mmo" that means both nailing down the content, AND appealing to the wide aduiance. Can he pull it off? I don't bleive so, but if he makes great strides in the attempt, and the game is better for it, then I am not going to push against that approach.

World of Warcraft hit its success coming after FFXI, which came out at the trailing edge of the Everquest era of MMOs. However, if market is any indication, we're now at the trailing edge of WoW's MMO era. We have the advantage to look at other MMOs, see what was done right, what was done wrong, and what hasn't been done - and that's a great place to be when you're completely remaking a game that already has a small established fan base.

Yoshida's policy is pretty clear here - he's not setteling for less. He, however foolish the idea may be cost wise, is fully intending on keeping his entire crew after redevelopment to continually crank out new content and systems after 2.0 launch. The content updates we've been given these past six months have been handed to us by a mere fraction of the full team. And the remaining people on the team has been working tirelessly on a gaming engine that is better both for players and for them to continue development with.

If Yoshi is intending on keeping that crew even after redevelopment, I don't think cost efficiency is in his venue here.

If I was taking a guess, he wants to create a wide berth of systems to cover as many playstyles as he can get, and then develop upon them in a way that keeps the players interested, as well as encouraging people to experiment around with the differing systems of the game.

We'll see how it pans out. I'm skeptical of his ability to maintain the momentum he has. But my faith in the man's vision? Rock solid. He's downright ambitious and idealistic to boot - my kind of guy. He well knows that this game can be his golden ticket to video game fame, or the shackles that will always make him a laughing stock of the industry. With that kind of pressure, you don't sleep much, and you must definitely do not pull your punches.

He might get knocked around by his superiors and have some of his people taken away form him, which will slow down his progress, but it won't stop him. I've no doubt that Yoshi-P will not stop until he's made a game that we are continually delighted and amazed over, or someone pulls the plug on him while he's trying.

Fantastically said. I think the fact that he intends to keep his full team is just proof that he has a pretty good grip on that problem WOW is facing. It isn't that Warcraft is a terrible game -- its that Blizzard isn't simply isn't able to put out content fast enough. Part of that is that many members of the team have been moved to other projects, namely Titan.

[Shurrikhan]

Why settle for either one? Why not land both?

You may excuse me for a bit of naievty here, but I'm not speaking my view, I'm speaking Yoshida's. He's set out to make "the best mmo" that means both nailing down the content, AND appealing to the wide aduiance. Can he pull it off? I don't bleive so, but if he makes great strides in the attempt, and the game is better for it, then I am not going to push against that approach.

World of Warcraft hit its success coming after FFXI, which came out at the trailing edge of the Everquest era of MMOs. However, if market is any indication, we're now at the trailing edge of WoW's MMO era. We have the advantage to look at other MMOs, see what was done right, what was done wrong, and what hasn't been done - and that's a great place to be when you're completely remaking a game that already has a small established fan base.

Yoshida's policy is pretty clear here - he's not setteling for less. He, however foolish the idea may be cost wise, is fully intending on keeping his entire crew after redevelopment to continually crank out new content and systems after 2.0 launch. The content updates we've been given these past six months have been handed to us by a mere fraction of the full team. And the remaining people on the team has been working tirelessly on a gaming engine that is better both for players and for them to continue development with.

If Yoshi is intending on keeping that crew even after redevelopment, I don't think cost efficiency is in his venue here.

If I was taking a guess, he wants to create a wide berth of systems to cover as many playstyles as he can get, and then develop upon them in a way that keeps the players interested, as well as encouraging people to experiment around with the differing systems of the game.

We'll see how it pans out. I'm skeptical of his ability to maintain the momentum he has. But my faith in the man's vision? Rock solid. He's downright ambitious and idealistic to boot - my kind of guy. He well knows that this game can be his golden ticket to video game fame, or the shackles that will always make him a laughing stock of the industry. With that kind of pressure, you don't sleep much, and you must definitely do not pull your punches.

He might get knocked around by his superiors and have some of his people taken away form him, which will slow down his progress, but it won't stop him. I've no doubt that Yoshi-P will not stop until he's made a game that we are continually delighted and amazed over, or someone pulls the plug on him while he's trying.

I hope I can soon share your confidence in the man. I almost do, but still can't quite reach that point. And in part of it is because of that sense of pragmatics in looking to old MMOs while pushing for that "best by both means". It doesn't take that much hindsight to see what worked and why from old MMOs, but every time you use that as your base of knowledge, you've already tied yourself down. The only insight that can be taken from the view of past games is of the playerbase, and even then it's like looking at products of numerous unknown factors rather than usefully measurable composition. I honest believe that making games is an art first, a skill second. And that opinion is not intuition alone.

Synergy of the elements of a game require a unique genius to begin with, something further out there -- world-stories, pervading feels, excellent plot-lines. It's hard to guess whether games any of the philosophic motifs parsed through Final Fantasy 7 through 9 (10 I consider to be relatively easy to guess and is therefore unlisted) were intended from the start, but if they weren't the characters, world, and plot pulled those things in like the perfect blanket. That's playing to a game's strength. Not that of a rival company, not prior games -- to each it's own.

Starting from the beginning by enlisting known means that exist only because they were how another game chose to use them to present their own world, story, feels, is like trying to make a new sport out of a (proven-designed) lacrosse stick, baseball bat, and a basket ball. MMORPG conventions as specific as 'quests' (as a pick-up, oppertunity granted, cash, reward mechanic) only exist because of limits in willnessness to code newly and design original, more fitting ideas. MMORPG goals like the feel of adventure, progression, and camaraderie are the only things that can really carry through time and time again. But they're ends, not means. A game should take it's own perspective on what those goals can and should mean to the game, and the means should be that alone.

The more you see originally, the more obvious the connections become to further additions, and the whole picture with every addition made. Playing instead a survivalist battle of testing pieces you never designed, albeit in your own forging, in order to hole up and refinish a sinking ship does not change that the hull is flawed and will sink again.

If he hasn't already, Yoshi needs to take a step back. If he wants to aim for perfection, he can't do it by repairing and slapping on new pieces. He has the opportunity of 2.0, and he should take it to see what he's really aiming for, in a complete view, and then pursue it.

Edit: I do find "cranking" out new content to be a near perfect example of playing to a survivalist method. Even while what 'content' provides may be intriguing and is certainly a worthwhile investment, it's no saving grace. WoW has only ever escalated its costs in playing to this strategy, and though it's made its success in bulk, its success has always been a comparative one. It systems are inviting and with have little annoyance, but neither are they at all remarkable. If this is the edge of a new era of MMOs, a step needs to be taken forward instead, to claim a remarkable spot in the era.