AOE Spam Fest <Please remove it>

[heit]

It's a good point, though I don't see a solution myself.

You could increase the stats of lower tier enemies as per usual progression in FF game (recycled enemies with higher stats) which would bring the amount of mobs down, though balance would be needed so we don't end up with the extreme left like in FF11 where you need 8 people to take down a single Goblin which was half the size of the axe being swung at it.

The issue thereafter is still that pts will generally use AoE to fight a group of enemies greater than X.

I've always wondered how it would work if AoE's were area based, so if you have say 10 enemies in a confined area on the tank, the damage of the AoE would be spread out based on the level of mobs, their position relevant to the epicentre, and if any of the mobs in front of them would act as a 'shield' and lessen the damage done.

Once again though, I feel we end up back at the "PT's AoE spamming".

Like I said... I don't know of a possible solution. I think if there was, SE would have implemented it by now and if not, may implement such either in/post 2.0

[Lux_Rayna]

No, you missed the point of his argument that was being defused. He was stating that multiple mobs was not "Final Fantasy" because he diddn't like the fact that it was harder to keep track of when it is was real time.

Yet, multiple mobs was still a stable of Final Fantasy 12, which is also a 3d continual time game.

I didn't read the *whole* thread, but I didnt' see this in the OP or recent posts, so I have nooo idea how you are drawing this conclusion. He said the current implementation of AoE sucks, and I agree. There's nothing challenging about it..its random click+aoe.

If you think the AoE fights in FFXIV require no thought, you are not doing any of the actual fights in the game.

Or maybe you find them more difficult than I do? I don't see the thought in anything about stronghold runs, darkhold, garuda plumes, AV, etc etc. The only one is CC, but one out of many doesn't count as good to me.
Cutters Cry: Specific mob types need to be extinguised at the same time to progress.

You're taking a minor portion of the game as an example as the entire thing, and the argument I diffused was "This isn't Final Fantasy" which is utter baloney. Wiping weak mobs with mass AoEs has always been a part of Final Fantasy. You still have to think, plan, and react accordingly in any battle that counts for anything in this game. Please stop complaining about xp camps like it's the entirety of the game.

Yes but it wasn't a zerg. Have you ran a dungeon? That's a zerg. Stronghold runs? Zerg. The only thing you can't outright zerg is CC, and AV in a couple spots because of all the toads. Everything else is zerg zerg zerg. Have you asked what mobs the BLM's are targetting for giggles? They probably dont even know. Just click one thats close by and your AOE will hit the important one by default. That's not very final fantasy if you ask me. In Final Fantasy you were at *least* allowed to effectively choose your targets. Good luck choosing a target in a mess of 15 mobs. Its awful. Targetting is atrocious. I can't even assist the main tank because I can't see what is hitting him. There is nothing strategic about that. A lot of this can be fixed with a better targetting system, but I see the OP's point. And its a fairly good one.

If you'd like to talk about adding greater depth to XP parties, you can read my above suggestions and actually comment on those, instead of attacking a side argument out of context.

Considering your side argument has to do with the main topic of the thread (the AOE's) I fail to see how its a "side" argument at all. Its the main topic, this thread isn't about suggestions (outside of get rid of it), its about what the aoe situation is like right now.

[Hyrist]

The problem isn't inherent in the game mechanics, though the lack of proper magic resist in the game does contribute to it.

The problem is inherent in the population taking the path of least resistance.

As I said, any fight of substance in this game uses AoE's properly. XP parties is not a fight of substance and never has been, not even in FFXI - and even then players took the path of least resistance. Fell Cleave burns anyone? If not Fell Cleave, how about TP burns? or Manaburns, or Arrowburns? None of these fights had substance to it, it was whatever exploit the players could get to yield greater XP. You are not going to break that trend unless you find a controlled method that will yield rewards greater than that of a typical mob grind.

My solution is creating group Leves - and it even addresses many of the concerns brought about by players here - so I've yet to hear of a better solution that has a broader appeal.

[Alaltus]

God please no FF XI made your char seem so weak needed 6 ppl to kill one mob was already shameful enough. Only FF where 6 ppl can get beat up by a single rabbit >_>.

If that isnt a challenge to SE to bring Fury to FFXIV i dont know what is =P

On a serious note personally i think the content at the moment leans towards large numbers of mobs a bit too much and wouldnt mind seeing a rebalancing of this a bit more towards less more challenging monsters > many less challenging monsters. But theres nothing wrong with having a bit of everything here and there.

[Hyrist]

Ok, time to smack down some falacies.

Yes but it wasn't a zerg. Have you ran a dungeon?

The 25 Dungeons had objectives that needed to be met. Were the monsters killed promptly? Yes, but that's a direct corrlation to another problem this game has - rewarding speed runs. Next.

Stronghold runs? Zerg.

When was the last time a Stronghold was important for anything but farming Headbands/Tapers? And go to the end of a stronghold and try to hold your ground for more than 10 minutes. See how long your zerg tactic holds up.

By the way Castra Novem is a stronghold. You need a hell of a lot of people to zerg that.

The only thing you can't outright zerg is CC, and AV in a couple spots because of all the toads. Everything else is zerg zerg zerg.

Garuda, Ifrit, Especially Ifrit Extreme, Moogle, Chocobo,

Have you asked what mobs the BLM's are targetting for giggles? They probably dont even know. Just click one thats close by and your AOE will hit the important one by default. That's not very final fantasy if you ask me.

*stare*

...
Just What

Are you talking about?

Saying not very final fantasy?


Again, what is and is not Final Fantasy is not up to the opinions of the players, but of the developers of Final Fantasy themselves. And as you can see above, there was quite a bit of "Blowing things up with massive amounts of magic with litter regard to target." In the previous games.

In Final Fantasy you were at *least* allowed to effectively choose your targets. Good luck choosing a target in a mess of 15 mobs. Its awful. Targetting is atrocious.

That has nothing to do with AoEs and everything to do with the bad engine and UI. You're committing blame by proxy. AoE's isn't the problem in this instance, the UI is, that and the fact that you keep picking weak monsters and old content as your examples.


The side argument was that AoE spam was not Final Fantasy. I've provided evidence to the contrary. Targeting issues are issues with the game's targeting. Monster's ease of death to magical damage is an issue with magical resists and players simply preferring to stick to weak monsters when Xping.

If enemies had better magic resist scaling on number of targets and level difference, we woulden't be having this conversation.

If people had better targeting, like /as, so that the melees could focus on the harder-to-kill targets of groups, we would not be having this conversation.

This is not a problem with how AoE Centric this game is. The fact that this game is group on group is a good thing. Does it need to be further refined? Yes. But AoEs, yes, even AoE Zerging, is a part of Final Fantasy, and has been since before Diablo.

Fights that make you 'think' still exist in quantifiable numbers in this game, so please quit filling your requests with overblown arguments and false statements. Castram Novum, Garuda, and Hamlet Defence has already proven that the developing use of AoEs are already beginning to become refined. Its time to further refine the argument itself to match current development trends.

And current development trends say "Hey, good job on United we Stand. We need more of that."

[Eremor]

The problem, I think, is not so much how many mobs you are fighting but how those mobs are positioned. When you pull a group of mobs they all end up in a tight group literally overlapping one another. If mobs were programmed to keep some distance between themselves and other nearby mobs, that would limit the number of mobs you could hit with aoe attacks and thereby limit that tactic's effectiveness.

Taking this idea one step further, It would be even more interesting for mobs to have a more sophisticated group AI system. Where mobs that link together would support each other at least in some limited fashion. This could be something as simple as changing the link routines to prioritize diverse mobs whenever possible. EX. when fighting in beastman strongholds and you pull a melee type mob the link priority would go to nearby ranged mobs first, creating an ad-hoc frontline/backline 'party' of mobs. It would be even better if these mobs could work together, mage mobs would know to cast cures on wounded frontline mobs, and frontline mobs would have some methods of supporting their backline members (maybe focusing on stun moves when mages in their 'party' were badly wounded) but obviously a complex AI system would be a great deal of work.

[Alhanelem]

So tell me, how does tab targeting the closest enemy in a group of 8 very weak monsters and using Fire to kill them at the same time have the same feel as any of the previous titles?

Because you could do it in basically every turn based and ATB based final fantasy?

[BlueMage]

Which FF, other than XI, didn't have you AOEing down groups of enemies? Which FF, other than XI, had you slowly, bitterly grinding your whole party against a single enemy, for every single battle?

[Payadopa]

I wish the mobs were just tougher in general. It's so easy, it's boring me to tears. No need for debuffs, no need for a real strategy. Just engage, use your best offensive ability, rinse, repeat.

[Biggs]

So, with the exception of mobs that are obviously higher level than the person fighting them, it has been a sad state of affairs when it comes to fighting most of the pathetic and unchallenging mobs that XIV has to offer. Whats even worse is the only mob that offers any sort of unique combat conditions in terms of strategy are the dodos. (i mean normal mobs here not bosses)

Case in point: There has long been medicines and gear in the game (and more recently materia) that nullify, bolster the defense against, or combat the effects of paralysis, poison, blind, slow, gravity and other DOT effects that mobs cause. The thing is, NONE of these effects last long enough or cause enough damage to even be considered a hurdle when combating normal mobs. I remember if you managed to get poisoned in Xi (i know, i mentioned Xi in this post, its now dead in the water) and your health was already in the yellow, you had some serious choices to make, and a short time to make them. The same goes for paralysis and the rest. The fact is, none of the skills 95% of the normal mobs utilize in this game stand out in any way as a challenge. This makes for little to no strategy requirments when fighting them, and whats worse SE chooses to junk up our inventory with medicines and materia to combat these things that are (since launch) absolutly pointless. Anyone doubting me should just go look up how much it costs to buy Chocobo Down, Funguar Shriek, or Treant Root Materia in the wards on ANY server.

This coupled with the complete lack of tactics employed by most mobs in the game makes for a fairly stagnent fighting enviroment. Kinda sad that an extinct bird known in RL for its less than awesome intelligence is the reigning champ in FFXIV for needing at least an afterthought as to how to take them down quickly and effectively.