Just remove leveling altogether if it's such a hindrance.

[Anonymoose]

Bravo, you once again failed to answer me and continued into obscurity. But hey, just forget it.

The answers are in there; I think you're confusing "obscurity" with articulation. Let me try with bullet points.

If you really believe there is no game until you reach cap, how is that not invalidating anything prior to cap?

• I don't believe that (but, hey, let's pretend I do.)
• The game starts when you create a character.
• You play the game as you level
• However, the game does not have much content at this point.
• The distinction between "Game" and "Content" is important in this case.
• The little content it has is repeated for exponentially longer than it takes to learn your new skills
• At cap, you gain access to more content.
• This does not invalidate the GAME before it
• However, repetition of the same minute content a second time is a waste considering you do not need to learn to play the game again, you need only to polish your ability to use new skills in that capped content.

[Haibel]

Gotta say. Generally, a 55% approval rating is nothing to be proud of.

only need 51% to be POTUS.

[Dragon]

I think he answered you as well as possible there.

But, let's just go ahead and assume that leveling is worthless. Putting aside it's use for gradually gaining (player, not just character) experience in the game, you could find enough fault in any section of the roles meant for leveling or in the usability of the leveling experience after reaching cap to approximate leveling as being useless.

What would you do about it?

No hyperbole. Seriously, what would you do?

I've not been hyperbolic, but I'll play your game: abolish it, just like I do with any product in my household I find useless: I will trash it. If it's not useful, then it's trash and only an idiot does not throw away what he considers to be trash.

[Dragon]

The answers are in there; I think you're confusing "obscurity" with articulation. Let me try with bullet points.

You did not answer it.

• I don't believe that (but, hey, let's pretend I do.)
• The game starts when you create a character.
• You play the game as you level
• However, the game does not have much content at this point.
• The distinction between "Game" and "Content" is important in this case.
• The little content it has is repeated for exponentially longer than it takes to learn your new skills
• At cap, you gain access to more content.
• This does not invalidate the GAME before it
• However, repetition of the same minute content a second time is a waste considering you do not need to learn to play the game again, you need only to polish your ability to use new skills in that capped content.

Once again: if we're to view the leveling as an experience, that anything pre-cap is useless, the game doesn't start until cap, what the hell is the point of having leveling at all? Don't tell me it's for tutorials or "learning your job" since you can do the whole "tutorial"/"learning your job" thing without leveling to begin with.

[Shurrikhan]

I've not been hyperbolic, but I'll play your game: abolish it, just like I do with any product in my household I find useless: I will trash it. If it's not useful, then it's trash and only an idiot does not throw away what he considers to be trash.

So the game begins at raid-"level" so to speak. Fine. Are there any other means of advancement?
What does the gameplay experience basically feel like? Would I still have a reason to do things other than raid-content?

[Soukyuu]

Leveling is fine as is.

minus the PL.

And the reason the previous thread was locked is, people on these forums need to take a chill pill.

[Shurrikhan]

You did not answer it.



Once again: if we're to view the leveling as an experience, that anything pre-cap is useless, the game doesn't start until cap, what the hell is the point of having leveling at all? Don't tell me it's for tutorials or "learning your job" since you can do the whole "tutorial"/"learning your job" thing without leveling to begin with.

I'm sure Anon could give a better answer than I can, but here's my two cents. Leveling as a function is always technically superfluous. However, the RPG aspect of any MMORPG demands it, and not just because it's traditional. The effects of leveling on stats and the like is a means. The main purpose is to have a 'feel' of character progression.

Do you know of any good RPG that hasn't had at least a good 'feel' to it? A sense of the world, a sense of some sort of story of both one's character and the world at large. In an MMO, we can't progress the entire world on a dime for every character, so we only get half that. *I am ignoring 'phasing' here, probably because I dislike how it's been implemented and believe there are better ways to serve that function.

This has become less apparent since the loss of Physical Levels.

[Anonymoose]

if we're to view the leveling as an experience, that anything pre-cap is useless, the game doesn't start until cap, what the hell is the point of having leveling at all? Don't tell me it's for tutorials or "learning your job" since you can do the whole "tutorial"/"learning your job" thing without leveling to begin with.

I've answered all I can from a development standpoint, the rest just seems to be semantics and subjective assessment. If you went through a hierarchical tutorial that wasn't leveling, it'd just be leveling with a different name attached to it; if it weren't hierarchical (aka leveling), then you'd be throwing a horizontally fleshed out character to someone in order to play devil's advocate about the necessity of a long vertical grind, which has nothing to do with this discussion.

Isn't that getting a little ethereal? Perhaps you're meaning to convey a bigger message than your words read; I might just be missing some context. Overall, though, I don't see what else there is for me to answer aside from just musing philosophy.

[Haibel]

minus the PL.

And the reason the previous thread was locked is, people on these forums need to take a chill pill.

Let's just bring back physical levels and get rid of all other levels and just quest all skills.
Wipe at 2.0 and start over. Any changes to what we have now means wipe.

[Dragon]

So the game begins at raid-"level" so to speak. Fine. Are there any other means of advancement?
What does the gameplay experience basically feel like? Would I still have a reason to do things other than raid-content?

Remember, I'm asking those that view leveling as a hindrance. In reality, any form of advancement is another manner of leveling. So really, are you are stuck with are raids and that kind of stuff, but if you believe that is where the game starts, why would you care about that being all there is to it to begin with?

People like myself that have asked for longer leveling experiences and that actually believe the game starts when you create your first character as a game is meant to have no problem with endgame or other manners of advancement - normally we don't find any of it useless, even if there are times we don't care for such content in/of itself. So your question is something you should be asking "yourself" - that is to say, that's why I'm asking in the first place why we don't just have it removed if we're to view it as a hindrance, as something useless, that we're to view the game only as starting at the cap.