Just remove leveling altogether if it's such a hindrance.

[Nazrakin]

I agree. If the developer intend leveling to be a small and inconsequential part of the game, then what is the point of having it? It becomes a waste of development time to create all these low level assets that no body ever uses for more than 20mins.

I'd prefer they create a balanced game where both the level up and end game experiences are fun, engaging, and full of content. If thats not going to happen, then I don't see why they'd push people through a boring level grind just to get to the good stuff.

[Anonymoose]

You're the one that claimed people must like the leveling process because of cognitive dissonance. It's a good thing though the moderator deleted your post, isn't it?

I don't understand - you just repeated the same thing again without addressing any of my questions.

It also doesn't seem like it makes any difference if the moderate nuked the post - I just repeated the same exact thing he deleted.

Here, lemme do it again:

some people, in response to doing a task that they do not like, develop an artificial liking for that task. "I must like doing this if I spent all day doing it!" It happens ... [snip] ... such is the case in many types of MMO grind, in my humble opinion.

Do you have any response to anything I've said other than to attack me personally on the basis of your disagreement with my opinions and associations? I thought you were here to debate the direction of the game.

Let's do that.

EDIT: Also, that post is still there.

[Dragon]

I don't understand - you just repeated the same thing again without addressing any of my questions.

It also doesn't seem like it makes any difference if the moderate nuked the post - I just repeated the same exact thing he deleted.

Here, lemme do it again:



Do you have any response to anything I've said other than to attack me personally on the basis of your disagreement with my opinions and associations? I thought you were here to debate the direction of the game.

Let's do that.

I've not attacked you. So how about answering my question instead.

[Catriona]

love how people that enjoy the current leveling speed = lazy, wants levels removed, etc.

and people that want 1-50 to take 6 months = hardcore, committed, better, etc.

the people have spoken and they like the current leveling speed.

Meh, I am so way not hardcore, and I don't need anyone to think I'm smuggling large goods in my e-pants, but I wouldn't mind a longer levelling curve. Especially for your first class; maybe it could get shorter for subsequent classes.

It seems like a faster levelling speed would be good right now since most of the actual actual content is either high-level or endgame, but that's a temporary state of affairs. Hopefully after 2.0, there will be more to do at each level range, so staying at that level range for a while won't be boring.

And it's nothing to do with having no life. My free time is smaller than aforementioned e-pants contents. But that doesn't mean I can't appreciate a slower experience.

[Shurrikhan]

I don't care if we keep leveling on not (Obviously we will) the hyperbole of removing levels is mainly to point out to people. What is the point of levels when there is no content or anything within the process?

As it stands leveling doesn't do anything that it currently should exist for. Leveling should at least.

1. Introduce you to the game world
2. Encourage you to explore
3. Teach you that your character has limitations
4. Show your characters growth over time
5. Encourage experimenting with new skills
6. Give a sense of accomplishment when you can overcome a task that was previously thought impossible.

ext~


Right now leveling is just a bump in the road to get to the end of the game.

Well, I've gotten 1, 3, & 4. At least that's half, right?

Honestly though, what MMO do you know have has all of these components down perfectly?

Even the highest ranking MMOs don't generally encourage exploration so much as force A-B-C-D-E-F hub movement, with as much freedom as A-B-C-D-F-E instead.

Experimentation requires a system that has worthwhile ability to be experimented with. If our stats worth something, and Haymaker still equipable to an Archer such that you were now your team's official ranged-evasion kiting tank, that's quite some experimentation. But, apparently it looked ridiculous, thus removed.

Giving a sense of accomplishment from something that could not be had or done before requires that the action is fun and challenging enough regardless of it's relationship to your past experiences. Anyone can kill a level 22 that they couldn't at level 16. Anyone can kill that awesome, annoying little NM that loves to eat travelers on the way to different city-states eventually, and gain a faint smirk from doing so, but actually enjoying it simply requires that the fight is enjoyable.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd prefer that leveling stayed lengthy, but it really does need improvement. I don't necessarily think that comes from adding "content", in its functional definition of something that is fun until out-leveled, so much as better systems for more free-form enjoyment. Some content is needed. But I think the ability to experiment, to have intuition and intelligence shine through in challenging situations, and a world that you'd be crazy not to want to explore are far more important. These are all baseline systems, the same for 50 as for 30. If anything, I'd like for 50's to feel a bit disappointed by being expected to spin their gears in the endgame when they could just be having fun.

I certainly wouldn't want to see the leveling experience 'improved' based on other MMOs' conventions. You can't take what's already just marginally satisfying and expect it shine. Slap C grade material onto a different game and the best it's going to get is a B grade result, and here closer to D.

While there's nothing intrinsically good about an original idea except that it won't be stale automatically, it at least has the advantage of being tailorable to what a game already has. FFXIV has a niche, and they should be expanding on it, rather than closing the gap with others--find something that it alone has, and absolutely master it.

For me, that could be the world and free-roam gaming, or a vivid world full of minor characters, or a deep world understory. FFXIV could crack open any of these, as long as it's solid through and through.

[Krausus]

Meh, I am so way not hardcore, and I don't need anyone to think I'm smuggling large goods in my e-pants, but I wouldn't mind a longer levelling curve. Especially for your first class; maybe it could get shorter for subsequent classes.

It seems like a faster levelling speed would be good right now since most of the actual actual content is either high-level or endgame, but that's a temporary state of affairs. Hopefully after 2.0, there will be more to do at each level range, so staying at that level range for a while won't be boring.

And it's nothing to do with having no life. My free time is smaller than aforementioned e-pants contents. But that doesn't mean I can't appreciate a slower experience.

not sure if it is so temporary, Yoshi already stated he wants to focus most the content at 50+

[Ruisu]

Even the highest ranking MMOs don't generally encourage exploration so much as force A-B-C-D-E-F hub movement, with as much freedom as A-B-C-D-F-E instead.

This is probably my one concern about 2.0. I loathe the hub questgiving method. Though I'm pretty sure they're making that completely optional, so you can continue with EXP parties, etc.

[Anonymoose]

So how about answering my question instead.

If the game cannot stop pre-cap,
making everything pre-cap useless,
then anything up until the cap is useless,
meaning having a leveling process is useless,
which begs the question as to why we don't ask it to be taken out.

That doesn't make much sense grammatically, so I'll do the best I can.

I think you're asking why we have a leveling process at all if it leads to a cap that invalidates all content lower than said cap once it has been reached.

Is that question not itself a fallacy due to the fact that you're hyperbolizing the criticisms of your original viewpoint that leveling should take a long time?

I never saw any claims that reaching cap invalidates all content lower than itself.

I think the level system gives you a hierarchy of learning. You start with your basic skills, and once you learn to use them, are given more complex skills on which to learn your routines and combinations.

It doesn't take you one thousand instances of a simple battle against a single mob to get that down, and putting in enough "repeat" coins to make the level-up jackpot spit out fanfare doesn't really amount to any real achievement other than the fact you stuck with it and put in the time, imho.

If "putting in the time" is all that matters, than I must really be playing the wrong game. I prefer skill, engagement, immerson, and ... well, not killing the same damn mob 1,000 times before it recognizes that I'm ready to move onto something more.

[Dragon]

That doesn't make much sense grammatically, so I'll do the best I can.

I think you're asking why we have a leveling process at all if it leads to a cap that invalidates all content lower than said cap once it has been reached.

Is that question not itself a fallacy due to the fact that you're hyperbolizing the criticisms of your original viewpoint that leveling should take a long time?

I never saw any claims that reaching cap invalidates all content lower than itself.

I think the level system gives you a hierarchy of learning. You start with your basic skills, and once you learn to use them, are given more complex skills on which to learn your routines and combinations.

It doesn't take you one thousand instances of a simple battle against a single mob to get that down, and putting in enough "repeat" coins to make the level-up jackpot spit out fanfare doesn't really amount to any real achievement other than the fact you stuck with it and put in the time, imho.

If "putting in the time" is all that matters, than I must really be playing the wrong game. I prefer skill, engagement, immerson, and ... well, not killing the same damn mob 1,000 times before it recognizes that I'm ready to move onto something more.

So you don't think that people complaining that "the game doesn't start until cap" think the cap doesn't invalidate anything? If you really believe there is no game until you reach cap, how is that not invalidating anything prior to cap?

[KoujiGeki]

well the people who dont like the level speed can always leave. nothings stopping you the FACT is 55% more than half the game agree its fine. Tough break sorry. only 21% said its to fast but only 3% actually post on forums. SE is going to cater to the masses not the few. and beside SE could increase the xp to get to 50 to 51 to 250k. Cause look at the jump to get rank ups from GC 40k to 25k to rank up.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/46535 just incase you need to see the player polls again.