Concerns about Content Finder, Drops, and Difficulty Settings for EG.

[Maxthunder]

I don't think folks are getting what Amsai is saying. I'm pretty sure that was a small example. That obviously wouldn't be the only stat -- +3 str derp! -- Let's get a better example:

This is what a normal mode drk/lgt cowl would have -- MP : +120, Enfeebling Magic Potency : +15, Int : +15, Pty : +15, Evasion : -20, Refresh : +3

This is what a hard mode drk/lgt cowl would have --MP : +125, Enfeebling Magic Potency : +18, Int : +18, Pty : +18, Evasion : -18, Refresh : +4

Okay. Now... Playing hardmode and getting all of the pieces of gear with the same differences in stats you see in exhibit B above, you'll find that it's quite the noticable difference from the complete set of normal mode gear's stats. At the same time, it's not an unfair difference.

Ah I see some casual players want the same rewards but on a lower difficulty. I have to disagree there is no reason that every difficulty level would have the same gear drops with just different stats. So basicly you are saying/suggestion that if there was an easy or normal mode the gear drops would be the exact same w different stats. Wait im sorry no, you want the best stuff earn it. How would you like it if your boss gave everyone the same amount in a raise yet you clearly worked harder for it or put more time in, while the other guy came in late all the time and just slacked off? Im pretty sure you would be up in arms pretty damn quick. If you cant earn the best rewards than you clearly dont deserve them. It may sound harsh but why should some1 get the same items/gear on a lower difficulty? Bottom line if you want something earn it, it dosent matter if you can spend 3 hours or 12 hours a day, (if a player/s wants to) they can earn the reward/s.

[Amsai]

I don't see a problem with hard modes either. What I have a problem with is dungeon design that gives no visible rewards and shows no sort of progression, hard modes being THE content instead of a branch of content, and hard mode gear being exponentially more powerful than regular mode gear. That's why I'd suggest Normal Mode, Hard Mode and Hard Mode +1 scaling if you absolutely have to have more than two echelons.

Games like WoW understand this, which is why they're implementing challenge modes for dungeons to see if that provides the challenge the hardcores so desire without upsetting the balance of power (more than the buff-nerf rollercoaster does, anyway).

*puts on Scholar's Mortarboard*

For those who didn't know, Challenge Modes are basically much like our speed runs, but with forced stat caps so that your group doesn't out-level or out-stat the dungeon. The rewards include achievements and gear with unique appearances for transmogrification (no stats). Your rewards are determined by the amount of time it would take to clear the dungeon.

Thank you, at last another reasonable human being. What this guy is saying is completely in line with the norm, and I have to say I mostly agree with him.

Well seeing as they said there will be drops for all difficulties, I don't see the problem.

It all depends on how they implement it. And thats yet to be seen. As a fan of the game and someone who wishes for its success, thats why I made this thread. I want devs to see this thread and make sure they are on the same page as the hearts of the casual audiance in regards to EG content. Thats why this forum was created: to let us, the players, give our feedback and suggestions. I know SE can make great games, but I also know that they have made some bombs and made multiple business blunders over the years. Sometimes I wonder if some of the strange decisions they make are representative of a culture gap or if they are just that out of touch. Whatever the case, any ensight I can help bring to bear is worth the effort. Regardless of what you think of me or my ideas and opinions, I hope you know I have nothing but whats best for the game in mind. I am not trying to kill the fun or rewards of the hardcore player base. SE just needs to be very cautious about how they approach difficulty settings and loot. And frankly I worry about what SE will do sometmes. For instance, I think Behest and HamDef and Caravan Escort are absolutely horrible content, and boring as hell. I was very sad that HamDef didnt turn out more something like Campaign. And its not just that, but a whole lot of little things along the way that give me pause. Sometimes SE makes things that make me want to cry tears of joy, and other times its just tears...... So as long as I have a voice, you're damn right Im gonna use it.

[Amsai]

Ah I see some casual players want the same rewards but on a lower difficulty. I have to disagree there is no reason that every difficulty level would have the same gear drops with just different stats. So basicly you are saying/suggestion that if there was an easy or normal mode the gear drops would be the exact same w different stats. Wait im sorry no, you want the best stuff earn it. How would you like it if your boss gave everyone the same amount in a raise yet you clearly worked harder for it or put more time in, while the other guy came in late all the time and just slacked off? Im pretty sure you would be up in arms pretty damn quick. If you cant earn the best rewards than you clearly dont deserve them. It may sound harsh but why should some1 get the same items/gear on a lower difficulty? Bottom line if you want something earn it, it dosent matter if you can spend 3 hours or 12 hours a day, (if a player/s wants to) they can earn the reward/s.

Your example doesnt work, becuase this is just a game not a job...........
Besides, it worked just fine if FFXI. There was normal EG gear and there was +1s. They looked the same, but one had slightly better stats. It worked there, it can work here. Also, because its +1 versions, its not the "same" gear. Lastly, I dont really care about the aesthetics of the gear. The Normal mode gear could look cool, and the hardmode could look freakin bad ass. I think thats fair. But the stats dont need to be vastly superior, just a bit better.

[Maxthunder]

Your example doesnt work, becuase this is just a game not a job...........
Besides, it worked just fine if FFXI. There was normal EG gear and there was +1s. They looked the same, but one had slightly better stats. It worked there, it can work here. Also, because its +1 versions, its not the "same" gear. Lastly, I dont really care about the aesthetics of the gear. The Normal mode gear could look cool, and the hardmode could look freakin bad ass. I think thats fair. But the stats dont need to be vastly superior, just a bit better.

Thats not a bad idea but... the +1 should have a little better stats. I can agree with this if all stats on the normal gear was the same and than the shall we say hq +1 version be much much better.

[ArkNova]

I wouldn't wanna see the same looking gear with only a difference in stats come out of normal and hard mode dungeons. If I were to do Sea Serpent Grotto (normal) and win I would be happy with gear along the lines of Eclipse Subligar being the reward and If I were to do it on hard mode I could see something like Darklight Subligar be a reward, giving example of stats on gear would just fan the argument of one side saying that's too high and the other side saying that's too low that's best left to the devs. The concern I raise is, can normal mode dungeons have their own bad ass looking gear?

[Asiaine]

Hello everyone!

The way I see it is this:

Problem: If hard mode drops something different than easy mode, then hard mode will be considered 'needed' in order to get that item. This would negate the benefit of having multiple modes as you would 'eventually' 'need' to do hard mode to get that different item.

Problem: If hard mode only drops a slightly better version of something than easy mode (+1 style stats or a bit more), then only a select few may be willing to do the 'hard' mode version to get that item. This means creating content for only a small percentage of the population, which is not something I can see them focusing on. So I do not see this as likely or wise. Plus it will be messy inventory wise to have multiple versions of same thing.

Problem: If hard mode drops significantly better version of something than easy mode (pretend +3 exists and imagine how much better that would be). Then this runs the risk of either making easy mode drop not worth or hard mode drop so powerful that it negates the need for crafting and melding. Both can lead to balance issues and make a sizeable population very unhappy (all in the name of having a 'hard' mode).


Perhaps what is needed regarding hard mode versus easy mode versus extreme mode is a completely different reward system independent of what is dropped. Some would argue that action is its own reward, but Garuda would argue otherwise. So what 'useful' but 'unrequired' drop can come from 'hard mode' that those who only compete in 'easy' mode won't mind, but still retain a benefit to doing hard mode?

To me, one obvious/useful answer is this:
Easy Mode: Drops the nice looking equipment. (This makes everyone happy).
Hard Mode: Drops Rare/Exotic materia. (Good for melders and dedicated players who want to tweak their stats)
Extreme Mode: Drops Exotic Matter. (Can be used to meld materia to specific unmeldable gear).

So a simple example (please don't interpret the values as realistic, only example random numbers):
Adventurer fights hard and eventually wins easy mode and is finally rewarded:
Easy mode drops: Cookiee Monster Cudgel (+10 INT, +20 Attack Magic)

A casual adventurer is happy and goes on her merry way. But another might say: Noo... that fight was too easy, I wish a harder challenge. She goes in and wins 'hard' mode and is rewarded with:
Hard mode drops: Fudge Materia IV (+10 INT, +10 PIE, +10 MND, +10 Magic Accuracy)

She looks at this and is pleased and thinks it would look good on her Lightning Brand. However, she thinks it would look even better on her Cookiee Monster Cudgel, but alas it is unmeldable... unless... She takes on the challenge of Extreme Mode and wins, and is rearded with:
Extreme mode drops: Cookiee Monster Super Materia (Allows melding of any materia to a Cookiee Monster weapon).

She then fuses her Fudge Materia IV to her Cookiee Monster Cudgel and is well pleased with herself.

(Note: I grant SE full rights to create a Cookiee Monster Cudgel and Fudge Materia).

Thank you.

[Figgleleaf]

Not that we even know if this is how it goes down... but a Token Reward is not a punishment for Easy Mode. It's an easy reward obtained for an Easy Mode. I would have assumed you were worried about your own character not earning much for playing on easy mode, but judging from this comment, you must be ready to solo Hard Mode...

The simple fact is that over half the players on FFXIV are average to terrible, and the content is so hard that the only way they will ever get wins is if good players pull them through the content.

[Firon]

I don't think folks are getting what Amsai is saying. I'm pretty sure that was a small example. That obviously wouldn't be the only stat -- +3 str derp! -- Let's get a better example:

This is what a normal mode drk/lgt cowl would have -- MP : +120, Enfeebling Magic Potency : +15, Int : +15, Pty : +15, Evasion : -20, Refresh : +3

This is what a hard mode drk/lgt cowl would have --MP : +125, Enfeebling Magic Potency : +18, Int : +18, Pty : +18, Evasion : -18, Refresh : +4

Okay. Now... Playing hardmode and getting all of the pieces of gear with the same differences in stats you see in exhibit B above, you'll find that it's quite the noticable difference from the complete set of normal mode gear's stats. At the same time, it's not an unfair difference.

that's not even worth doing lol.

[Duelle]

Not that we even know if this is how it goes down... but a Token Reward is not a punishment for Easy Mode. It's an easy reward obtained for an Easy Mode.

Not token as in getting tokens to trade for gear or whatnot. He meant token as in just...there. No reward, no gear, just the victory.

They looked the same, but one had slightly better stats. It worked there, it can work here. Also, because its +1 versions, its not the "same" gear. Lastly, I dont really care about the aesthetics of the gear. The Normal mode gear could look cool, and the hardmode could look freakin bad ass. I think thats fair. But the stats dont need to be vastly superior, just a bit better.

I can agree with this, though in some cases the difference between NQ and +1 gear was that only the +1 version had stats and the NQ was just garbage.

Something we should also keep in mind is that we should try to not give no-lifers an easy ticket to rule over everyone else in PvP. Tier gear in vanilla WoW made it pretty clear hwo a guy in tier 2 or 3 gear could easily wipe the floor with the opposing team because the stat discrepancy was that big.

I'll remain in favor of hard mode gear being slightly better versions of normal mode gear.

[AmyNeudaiz]

Thank you, at last another reasonable human being. What this guy is saying is completely in line with the norm, and I have to say I mostly agree with him.



It all depends on how they implement it. And thats yet to be seen. As a fan of the game and someone who wishes for its success, thats why I made this thread. I want devs to see this thread and make sure they are on the same page as the hearts of the casual audiance in regards to EG content. Thats why this forum was created: to let us, the players, give our feedback and suggestions. I know SE can make great games, but I also know that they have made some bombs and made multiple business blunders over the years. Sometimes I wonder if some of the strange decisions they make are representative of a culture gap or if they are just that out of touch. Whatever the case, any ensight I can help bring to bear is worth the effort. Regardless of what you think of me or my ideas and opinions, I hope you know I have nothing but whats best for the game in mind. I am not trying to kill the fun or rewards of the hardcore player base. SE just needs to be very cautious about how they approach difficulty settings and loot. And frankly I worry about what SE will do sometmes. For instance, I think Behest and HamDef and Caravan Escort are absolutely horrible content, and boring as hell. I was very sad that HamDef didnt turn out more something like Campaign. And its not just that, but a whole lot of little things along the way that give me pause. Sometimes SE makes things that make me want to cry tears of joy, and other times its just tears...... So as long as I have a voice, you're damn right Im gonna use it.

But your whole point would alienate hardcore players. DERP.
Are you just high on yourself or something not able to look at the other side of the fence?
I'm sitting here in the middle and you're waaaaay left field buddy. The way you want it, no one would do the hard content. It wouldn't be worth it. Look at Garuda now, the weapons aren't worth the difficulty so -almost- no one tries it anymore. Why? Because it's not worth the trouble!
There should be tiers and those tiers should be noticable AND I SAY NOTICABLE NOT OP AS F**K. If you wanna throw stats out there then do it according to how stats are now, not how you assume stats will be like in 2.0.
And I loooooooooooooove how you preach about how you have this forum to voice your opinion even though no one is telling you that you can't. You have to throw stawman argument after strawman argument, you use go way off topic of what anyone with a disagreeing statement has to say and go to the extremes of what others are saying against your points and you completely ignore valid and strong points against your view because OH you don't wanna look wrong now do you?
I never mentioned if you want this game to succeed, I never brought up why this forum was created, I never said you can't voice your opinion, I never talked about SE's ability to make other games, I never talked about SE's "bombs" or mentioned "bad business", your comment about a culture gap and their "grip on reality" has nothing to do with the topic, no one mentioned 1.0 content that will be redone like Caravans or Behests or Hamlets, and no one asked you what SE makes you do and that's just your last post!


No real difference between normal and hard loot is a S**T idea that will alienate hardcore players and I am damned glad they will never listen to people like you again. This is fact, coming from hardcore players who know what they're talking about because they are hardcore and they know what will keep them from playing.
The fact that you just want good loot without trying hard to get it just shows that you don't want there to be a reason to work hard and you want casual players to be almost just as good as hardcore players which just isn't right. Plain and simple. Be rewarded Fairly for your effort. Is that so much to ask that you f***ing see that point?