Skill trees and Alternate Advancement

[Shurrikhan]

tldr: I'm harkening back toward the concepts around FFXIV launch. Some blending in with job system.

[Look up for middle. I don't like quoting large blocks.]

Though not quite what the OP is asking for, I think this would have allowed for some "individualization".

Granted, I think only the players seeking maximized performance across multiple jobs would have been impacted most by this style. Where the auto is meant as a deterrent for players overwhelmed by the question "What is good for me? I just want to heal you (in my underwear and not die)."

I thought it'd be basically the same as you stated, however, my mind somehow made the jump ahead that these stats would be overlaid with something along the lines of passive "Techniques," which would be how stats would actually transform into quantified effects.

For example, depending on their Technique (think Stance if that's what you normally go by), a Pugilist could be additionally using their Strength for defense against a locked-on opponent by making blocks usable with defense based on their gloves, and Dexterity is swapped out from dodge against multiple opponents to critical dodge against the locked and additional accuracy and slight attack power bonuses also against the locked opponent [imagine a tight, fists-high stance].

If there were to be any relationship between techniques and elements, the modifier for Dexterity as additional accuracy would come from Thunder, damage from Fire, critical defense from Wind, and Strength as defense from Earth, using 4 in total, which I imagine would be a pretty common maximum (3 being about average).

Taking this elaborate pre-game dream one step further, I assumed there'd also be Mindsets, which are essentially what calculates how you gain TP. For example, lets say we have a Mindset called Momentum for a Lancer, paired with some sort of Strength as range increase, Dex as movement increase technique (The Charge). I'd be gaining damage based on movement speed coming into the attack, and tp for the attack bonus conserved in addition to normal damage-to-tp gains.

So that would probably make me a Dexterity-high, Air-high Lancer who kites the battlefield skewering through shit. I'd probably pair this with a Scout Mindset if the class was implemented (Decoy), to take full advantage of when I come out of a line of attack.

Ahh... good... thought-... times. o.O

[DeadRiser]

EDIT: I now see you actually did say MRD...yeah I would laugh at you to, sorry you are gimping yourself and your party.

To each his own. Your just like the people that would laugh at people that selected the "unwanted" skill tree. Gimping myself. HA High survivability and decent damage (plus back up heals/support/raise) with random people is gimping myself.... lol think about it dude

[Krausus]

To each his own. Your just like the people that would laugh at people that selected the "unwanted" skill tree. Gimping myself. HA High survivability and decent damage (plus back up heals/support/raise) with random people is gimping myself.... lol think about it dude

if your party sucks so bad that you need to equip cure and raise to survive instead of going WAR you shouldn't be doing Ifrit. I dont mean to be insulting but Ifrit is not so hard that you need to do all that.

[DeadRiser]

if your party sucks so bad that you need to equip cure and raise to survive instead of going WAR you shouldn't be doing Ifrit. I dont mean to be insulting but Ifrit is not so hard that you need to do all that.

Did you even bother to read? I said with random people. And WAR as a DD is bad compared to a MRD.

WAR for damage... you just get steel cyclone and a bunch of enmity increasing abilities
MRD for damage... you get keen flurry, invigorate, second wind, cure, raise, blindside, etc.

Now what were you saying?

[Shurrikhan]

Hrm... Aren't skill trees quest-based and called Jobs in this game?
I mean, that's what it looks like to me.

They are. The question then is simply whether or not one can reach a satisfactory amount of uniqueness in niche or playstyle they enjoy through the class system, just as would be asked for any skill tree of any given class in any other MMO.

Back on point though. Whatever system is made for alternate advancement (i.e. not just levels and defaults) I'd like to start basically from the beginning. Heck, if you make the system out of parts leveled separately, let's say Traits, you might even be able to encourage that people make a "spec" out of their leveling experiences, rather than swapping to a forum spec at level 50, since it would take time to level those new traits (before selecting them as your active ones).

Basically, you keep gaining xp after level 50, just with no effect to your max level class. And this xp is spendable directly on leveling traits. Some paired traits (let's say Aegis Shield - more percentage damage taken healing vs. more healing from damage NOT taken / blocked) will automatically gain half of the xp spent on the other side, allowing fast swapping for those who have pooled xp into the ability. (I suppose this would also have to apply double xp effect once the other side is filled or people will always balance their xp pooling in order to spend less xp for max effect. There, fixed.)

Basically, take some of the traits that are already ability-specific or just the ones that are already cool enough as examples, but from each trait develop a foundation for diverging play-styles. In the above example, one would be more helpful to tanks, while the other would serve as a saving grace for non-tanks. These could perhaps be played on through another trait that boosts tp from blocking, or another trait that increases the maximum tp consumable on a block-counterattack (Phalanx) for additional damage based on recent amount of damage absorbed / blocked / what have it. In short, the total web of traits available should equally contribute to different possible play-styles. Traits can be adopted from other classes by spending a slight amount of xp (compared to the trait's original expenditure) in the class you want to move them to, i.e. converting traits.

[Firon]

@ Deadriser: To me mrd does way more dmg than war tho. So i have to agree with you.

[Krausus]

Did you even bother to read? I said with random people. And WAR as a DD is bad compared to a MRD.

WAR for damage... you just get steel cyclone and a bunch of enmity increasing abilities
MRD for damage... you get keen flurry, invigorate, second wind, cure, raise, blindside, etc.

Now what were you saying?

I was saying that if you have to go class to survive then you need to get better, simple as that. You didnt say you where going MRD for for more damage skills you said you where going MRD for backup support cure and raise dont change your mind now. Randoms or not if you have to go on classes then you shouldn't be doing Ifrit.

[DeadRiser]

I was saying that if you have to go class to survive then you need to get better, simple as that. You didnt say you where going MRD for for more damage skills you said you where going MRD for backup support cure and raise dont change your mind now. Randoms or not if you have to go on classes then you shouldn't be doing Ifrit.

Way to take everything I said out of context. Have you ever heard of "sh*t happens"? When a whm just so happens to get hit by an eruption and die, or the healers are running away from eruptions, having extra support is a great things. That's what classes are for.

Please don't assume that I'm bad at Ifrit. It has NOTHING to do with my skill. I've gotten 6/7 weapons and have only been doing it for fun now. When you do it with NEWER people that aren't used to Ifrit, I rather survivability and support. I never changed my "mind", so please get this bullsh*t out of your mind.

[Krausus]

Way to take everything I said out of context. Have you ever heard of "sh*t happens"? When a whm just so happens to get hit by an eruption and die, or the healers are running away from eruptions, having extra support is a great things. That's what classes are for.

Please don't assume that I'm bad at Ifrit. It has NOTHING to do with my skill. I've gotten 6/7 weapons and have only been doing it for fun now. When you do it with NEWER people that aren't used to Ifrit, I rather survivability and support. I never changed my "mind", so please get this bullsh*t out of your mind.

I didn't say YOU where bad I said your party was bad.

[Kyra]

Yeah being able to respec a skill tree is fine, as long as it takes a little bit of effort and time, maybe a repeatable quest with a 1 week cooldown, and even then you should only get 2/3 of the exp back to respec a new tree with. The whole point of it will be to make a choice and stick with it, not respecing every time you do a new dungeon or primal, thats the same as just changing to a different job for whatever content you do.

Changing jobs gives you options already. If you want to fight ifrit but your blm is specialised in fire, then fight him with another job. Or fight him with your fire blackmage, because it wont be any worse than it was before and you will still have your thunder nukes the same as now and increased fire resist, its just a thunder specialised blm will do more dmg for that particular fight than you.

Oh no! so your not as good as a thunder blackmage for the ifrit fight, get over it lol, you made that choice and when you do a fight with a boss weak to fire or AoE is needed its the thunder blackmage that will be crying or accepting the choice he made.

Dont use the argument that everyone will choose the best possible build, because there would be no best possible build for everything. thats the whole point. You might be great at somethings, average at other things and suck at other stuff (compared to people that have chosen other specialities).