Skill trees and Alternate Advancement

[DeadRiser]

Not sure how this has anything to do with what I said. But on the subject no class should be excluded from Ifrit, I mean it is Ifrit for gods sakes....

Just like no skill tree or whatever should be excluded from content. Each would have it's use, people will nit pick whatever but they will eventually get over it.

[Shurrikhan]

no one ever said people dont already do that it is proven time and time again that people already do that so people would still do that and the OPs suggestion to give more options in theory sounds good but again it wont matter the community will negate the purpose by flocking to a certain build. Nothing will change aside from more work for devs, and forums flooded with "whats the best build for class A", "this is", "no its not you stupid ass noob this is!", " you are both stupid ass noobs because this is actually the best!" "ask BG they know the best build and all of you stop being stupid ass noobs!"

What's funny about the OP build of any given time, as long as the system is complex enough, is that it's usually one of many, but a good player hasn't tried out the other ones yet. When WoW still had the lengthy WotLK talents, I could consistently beat a forum spec in the hands of any player with my gearscore unless the stats were perfectly aligned for that spec and the player was more experienced than me.

Double death rune Frost/Blood, win. Howling Blast / Frost Strike heavy Frost, win. Ghoul-less Unholy, still win. ISS Gambit MM, win. Agil MM, win. Steady Cobra Strikes Beastmastery, win.

Even putting aside the loss of utility in your top DPS specs, the difference is usually marginal in a well-crafted system and will be beaten in more and more situations inversely to how large that margin is, due to the perfection and rigidity required. It's unlikely FFXIV would every attempt something of that level, but the skill tree system is not innately flawed.

[Krausus]

What's funny about the OP build of any given time, as long as the system is complex enough, is that it's usually one of many, but a good player hasn't tried out the other ones yet. When WoW still had the lengthy WotLK talents, I could consistently beat a forum spec in the hands of any player with my gearscore unless the stats were perfectly aligned for that spec and the player was more experienced than me.

Double death rune Frost/Blood, win. Howling Blast / Frost Strike heavy Frost, win. Ghoul-less Unholy, still win. ISS Gambit MM, win. Agil MM, win. Steady Cobra Strikes Beastmastery, win.

Even putting aside the loss of utility in your top DPS specs, the difference is usually marginal in a well-crafted system and will be beaten in more and more situations inversely to how large that margin is, due to the perfection and rigidity required. It's unlikely FFXIV would every attempt something of that level, but the skill tree system is not innately flawed.

though I haven't played wow since like TBC last I recall it was a nightmare balancing that game. Personally I don't care if we have skill trees It wont effect me much because I could live with them or without. I'm just basically stating the obvious and very much an ongoing trend since XI.... sub NIN anyone?

[Airget]

I think customization can only work with pvp. We have the option to customize out abilities from 6 other classes(2 if on jobs) but it becomes less of a customization and more of a Needization. Meaning the abilities we set aren't really allowing us to "customize" our character but rather setting skills we need to be optimized.

Take BLM for example or any job class which has archer as a skill set. They NEED to lv that class to 42 to obtain chameleon to assist in hate control.

I mentioned this idea back in another topic but I honestly thing the best method of customization could be learning BLUE magic which can be used only in PVP. At least then you don't have to think about balance much, every player can attach up to 5 BLU spells and they have 0/x points to work with. So there could be 50-100 BLU spells in the game which mean you would be able to give yourself a nice bit of customization to keep your foe on their toes during a match since a Warrior could attach healing abilities to them to make them healer to catch a group off-guard thinking that the two warriors have no healing support or a BLM could run into the middle of the battle-field with an almost drained MP pool but have BLU spells set to make them more durable and take hits to draw out the enemy.

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When it comes to customization, while we all would like the option to give ourselves unique skills/aspects to set ourselves from others, in a PVE mentality it just doesn't work because their are always "god" combos that will have to be used rather than whatever you set yourself as because it's already been proven to work. Then of course by adding more abilities for customization it just takes that much longer to balance PVE aspects so by keeping it simple it's just easier to release content and base strategies around said abilities rather then thinking of all the variables included which make things harder to balanace.

However if customization is put into PVP with a point limit then if a skill combo is seen as to potent they can change the number variables or weaken said spell to balance it out, but the impact wouldn't be as big as in PVE because at least with PVP it's meant to be competitive and always balancing. Because of that it's easier for players to adapt into a new set of 5 BLU spells then it is to say completely level a new class/job because they gimped the one you are using.

[urtv]

the thing with skill trees is that everyone will still be carbon copies of each other because people will always choose the best dps route.if everyone chooses a different route then some people wont able to run certain instances because the route they choose is resisted by the enemies in that instance.to make up for it SE will then have to release x top tier instances to make up for everyone going a different tree path

[Mirage]

The way i see it, subjobs in FF11 were the "specs" in that game. In FF14, the skills we set from other classes is how we "spec" in this game.

I don't see a purpose in a skill tree system in this game. I'd rather expand on the multi-class possibilities that we are used to both in this game, and in previous final fantasy games.

However, I wouldn't mind a tiny bit of specialization such as what we got with merits in FF11.

[Jynx]

Give us some diversity, but like XI make it so it's not permanent but a ask in itself to "Respec" your class.

I think we can all understand the pain of making a thunder buffed Blackmage to find out that Ice is in next patch and have no recourse to change. At least in XI if your merit choices fell flat you always had a choice to get the merits again and replace some of those skills with others.

I agree that we need more diversity within our class/jobs. Nothing sucks more than knowing that once I'm maxed out I'll be just like everyone else and I can't get some quirky but usefull skills that nobody else thought of using.

[Rannie]

honestly... when i think of skill trees i think of Diablo 2 which was a great game and all but meh to me it doesn't go too well with this game. Also think of it this way a person can have the best gear best of everything and can't play their job worth crap so yeah I don't want a skill tree in this game

[Fiosha_Maureiba]

tldr: I'm harkening back toward the concepts around FFXIV launch. Some blending in with job system.

Extended:
This is the way I *thought* it was going to be:

1. One set of stats to govern all character classes.
2. The ability to invest in elemental attributes.
3. Stat investment being more transparent in determining how effective the stat was.
4. Stat preferences play the role in class effectiveness until point reallocation.
5. An option for auto-point allocation for players not interested in manual distribution.

Elemental Example:

• A Gladiator who invested in the Fire attribute would have a stronger Red Lotus (sword attack with fire damage). This Gladiator takes less damage from fire attacks.
• A Marauder investing in the Wind attribute may have a stronger Iron Tempest (donut axe with wind damage). This Marauder takes less damage from wind attacks.
• A Black Mage investing in the Fire attribute would have stronger Fire and Firaga spells. This Black Mage takes less damage from fire attacks. His offensive capability against Ifrit may decline, but his ability to survive against fire attacks could make up for this.

One Set of Stats for All Classes:

• Balanced: Players may allocate their attribute points to become balanced, thus being able to fulfill the role of tank, damage dealer, debuffer, healer, gatherer, or crafter on an effective level.
• Defender: Players might allocate their attribute points toward increasing their HP, physical, magic defense, and chance to block. This player may be more suited for tanking roles such as Gladiator, Marauder, or Community Rep. This player may also be suited for mining or Hand classes that take advantage of their stats.
• Physical Offense: Allocating toward strength, accuracy, and perhaps some survivability to endure area attacks. This player may be more suited to physical attackers such as Pugilist, Archer, Lancer, or using Marauder offensively. These individuals may also make good blacksmiths.
• Magic Offense: Allocating toward intelligence, magic accuracy, and having a larger pool of MP. This player may have little regard for physical offense or resistance toward physical attacks. This player may be more suited toward Thaumaturge, an offensive Conjurer, or a Monk.
• Support: Allocating toward healing potency, enhancement potency, and large MP pools. This player may not be able to deal as much damage as others, but may be more suited toward a healing or enhancement role.

Auto-Allocation toward a particular class or play style for players not interested in this type of customization. The default setting might have been set for balanced stats so that players could continue to experiment with all classes until they found their favored play style.

Though not quite what the OP is asking for, I think this would have allowed for some "individualization".

Granted, I think only the players seeking maximized performance across multiple jobs would have been impacted most by this style. Where the auto is meant as a deterrent for players overwhelmed by the question "What is good for me? I just want to heal you (in my underwear and not die)."

[Shurrikhan]

tldr: I'm harkening back toward the concepts around FFXIV launch. Some blending in with job system.

[Look up for middle. I don't like quoting large blocks.]

Though not quite what the OP is asking for, I think this would have allowed for some "individualization".

Granted, I think only the players seeking maximized performance across multiple jobs would have been impacted most by this style. Where the auto is meant as a deterrent for players overwhelmed by the question "What is good for me? I just want to heal you (in my underwear and not die)."

I thought it'd be basically the same as you stated, however, my mind somehow made the jump ahead that these stats would be overlaid with something along the lines of passive "Techniques," which would be how stats would actually transform into quantified effects.

For example, depending on their Technique (think Stance if that's what you normally go by), a Pugilist could be additionally using their Strength for defense against a locked-on opponent by making blocks usable with defense based on their gloves, and Dexterity is swapped out from dodge against multiple opponents to critical dodge against the locked and additional accuracy and slight attack power bonuses also against the locked opponent [imagine a tight, fists-high stance].

If there were to be any relationship between techniques and elements, the modifier for Dexterity as additional accuracy would come from Thunder, damage from Fire, critical defense from Wind, and Strength as defense from Earth, using 4 in total, which I imagine would be a pretty common maximum (3 being about average).

Taking this elaborate pre-game dream one step further, I assumed there'd also be Mindsets, which are essentially what calculates how you gain TP. For example, lets say we have a Mindset called Momentum for a Lancer, paired with some sort of Strength as range increase, Dex as movement increase technique (The Charge). I'd be gaining damage based on movement speed coming into the attack, and tp for the attack bonus conserved in addition to normal damage-to-tp gains.

So that would probably make me a Dexterity-high, Air-high Lancer who kites the battlefield skewering through shit. I'd probably pair this with a Scout Mindset if the class was implemented (Decoy), to take full advantage of when I come out of a line of attack.

Ahh... good... thought-... times. o.O