Skill trees and Alternate Advancement

[Vingtdeux]

We definitely need more customization options.

[Antipika]

a few concerns: SE tried this to an extent with customizing stats. it ended miserably as stats had relatively little meaning in order to prevent certain builds from being OP.


Also, didn't Rift try this? dont they have less players than we do now?

and finally, dont people just end up gravitating toward cookie cutter builds?

Rift have way more than XIV... Rift NA alone is beating XIV. They sure lost a lot of customers post-launch (like all MMO now anyway...)

Now the Rift tree system is not a big issue because it works somehow like XIV Armoury system, you can swap at any time (just need to be out of combat). You can have 6 template as well, allowing you to have specs for all type of content (Raiding, Solo/Low man PvE, PvP) but also different roles.

Off course players come up with templates and "cookie cutter builds". But maximizing DPS requires to keep up a perfect skill rotation (while managing to focus on your encounter) and it can be really hard. So there are drawbacks. Some specs are superior for AoE, while some are superior for Single target encounters with little movement. Some are better when constant movement is necessary. While some are very good for damage spike. So it's not as easy as "this build is the best".

Having more jobs would exactly work the same way. It would be like linking a template to each specific job. Having a tree is only good to make really minor changes.

[DeadRiser]

Lol

"People are going to find a certain dps build and not invite people who are don't have that tree"
"So many people are only going to go for one specific type of tree when it's 'the one'".

And the community doesn't do that with dps? Um hello BLM/BRD/WHM/WAR. Might not have been as bad as it was, it just take SE part to balance it out more. They can do a skill tree (with changeable properties), they just have to balance and do it correctly. I love the classes/jobs we have now, just wish there was more diffrentiating things between two dragoons if they two choose so. I like uniqueness... but that's one thing I've noticed the community on the forums at least doesn't like lol

[Airget]

I think customization can only work with pvp. We have the option to customize out abilities from 6 other classes(2 if on jobs) but it becomes less of a customization and more of a Needization. Meaning the abilities we set aren't really allowing us to "customize" our character but rather setting skills we need to be optimized.

Take BLM for example or any job class which has archer as a skill set. They NEED to lv that class to 42 to obtain chameleon to assist in hate control.

I mentioned this idea back in another topic but I honestly thing the best method of customization could be learning BLUE magic which can be used only in PVP. At least then you don't have to think about balance much, every player can attach up to 5 BLU spells and they have 0/x points to work with. So there could be 50-100 BLU spells in the game which mean you would be able to give yourself a nice bit of customization to keep your foe on their toes during a match since a Warrior could attach healing abilities to them to make them healer to catch a group off-guard thinking that the two warriors have no healing support or a BLM could run into the middle of the battle-field with an almost drained MP pool but have BLU spells set to make them more durable and take hits to draw out the enemy.

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When it comes to customization, while we all would like the option to give ourselves unique skills/aspects to set ourselves from others, in a PVE mentality it just doesn't work because their are always "god" combos that will have to be used rather than whatever you set yourself as because it's already been proven to work. Then of course by adding more abilities for customization it just takes that much longer to balance PVE aspects so by keeping it simple it's just easier to release content and base strategies around said abilities rather then thinking of all the variables included which make things harder to balanace.

However if customization is put into PVP with a point limit then if a skill combo is seen as to potent they can change the number variables or weaken said spell to balance it out, but the impact wouldn't be as big as in PVE because at least with PVP it's meant to be competitive and always balancing. Because of that it's easier for players to adapt into a new set of 5 BLU spells then it is to say completely level a new class/job because they gimped the one you are using.

[Krausus]

Lol

"People are going to find a certain dps build and not invite people who are don't have that tree"
"So many people are only going to go for one specific type of tree when it's 'the one'".

And the community doesn't do that with dps? Um hello BLM/BRD/WHM/WAR. Might not have been as bad as it was, it just take SE part to balance it out more. They can do a skill tree (with changeable properties), they just have to balance and do it correctly. I love the classes/jobs we have now, just wish there was more diffrentiating things between two dragoons if they two choose so. I like uniqueness... but that's one thing I've noticed the community on the forums at least doesn't like lol

no one ever said people dont already do that it is proven time and time again that people already do that so people would still do that and the OPs suggestion to give more options in theory sounds good but again it wont matter the community will negate the purpose by flocking to a certain build. Nothing will change aside from more work for devs, and forums flooded with "whats the best build for class A", "this is", "no its not you stupid ass noob this is!", " you are both stupid ass noobs because this is actually the best!" "ask BG they know the best build and all of you stop being stupid ass noobs!"

[DeadRiser]

no one ever said people dont already do that it is proven time and time again that people already do that so people would still do that and the OPs suggestion to give more options in theory sounds good but again it wont matter the community will negate the purpose by flocking to a certain build. Nothing will change aside from more work for devs, and forums flooded with "whats the best build for class A", "this is", "no its not you stupid ass noob this is!", " you are both stupid ass noobs because this is actually the best!" "ask BG they know the best build and all of you stop being stupid ass noobs!"

People laugh at me when I go as MRD still on Ifrit fights. They think I can't do good damage and will die from animation lock.

I end up doing fairly decent damage and also survive hellfire everytime, even if there is nails still up. People will learn if givin the chance...

[urtv]

the thing with skill trees is that everyone will still be carbon copies of each other because people will always choose the best dps route.if everyone chooses a different route then some people wont able to run certain instances because the route they choose is resisted by the enemies in that instance.to make up for it SE will then have to release x top tier instances to make up for everyone going a different tree path

[Krausus]

People laugh at me when I go as MRD still on Ifrit fights. They think I can't do good damage and will die from animation lock.

I end up doing fairly decent damage and also survive hellfire everytime, even if there is nails still up. People will learn if givin the chance...

Not sure how this has anything to do with what I said. But on the subject no class should be excluded from Ifrit, I mean it is Ifrit for gods sakes....

[Shurrikhan]

no one ever said people dont already do that it is proven time and time again that people already do that so people would still do that and the OPs suggestion to give more options in theory sounds good but again it wont matter the community will negate the purpose by flocking to a certain build. Nothing will change aside from more work for devs, and forums flooded with "whats the best build for class A", "this is", "no its not you stupid ass noob this is!", " you are both stupid ass noobs because this is actually the best!" "ask BG they know the best build and all of you stop being stupid ass noobs!"

What's funny about the OP build of any given time, as long as the system is complex enough, is that it's usually one of many, but a good player hasn't tried out the other ones yet. When WoW still had the lengthy WotLK talents, I could consistently beat a forum spec in the hands of any player with my gearscore unless the stats were perfectly aligned for that spec and the player was more experienced than me.

Double death rune Frost/Blood, win. Howling Blast / Frost Strike heavy Frost, win. Ghoul-less Unholy, still win. ISS Gambit MM, win. Agil MM, win. Steady Cobra Strikes Beastmastery, win.

Even putting aside the loss of utility in your top DPS specs, the difference is usually marginal in a well-crafted system and will be beaten in more and more situations inversely to how large that margin is, due to the perfection and rigidity required. It's unlikely FFXIV would every attempt something of that level, but the skill tree system is not innately flawed.

[Krausus]

What's funny about the OP build of any given time, as long as the system is complex enough, is that it's usually one of many, but a good player hasn't tried out the other ones yet. When WoW still had the lengthy WotLK talents, I could consistently beat a forum spec in the hands of any player with my gearscore unless the stats were perfectly aligned for that spec and the player was more experienced than me.

Double death rune Frost/Blood, win. Howling Blast / Frost Strike heavy Frost, win. Ghoul-less Unholy, still win. ISS Gambit MM, win. Agil MM, win. Steady Cobra Strikes Beastmastery, win.

Even putting aside the loss of utility in your top DPS specs, the difference is usually marginal in a well-crafted system and will be beaten in more and more situations inversely to how large that margin is, due to the perfection and rigidity required. It's unlikely FFXIV would every attempt something of that level, but the skill tree system is not innately flawed.

though I haven't played wow since like TBC last I recall it was a nightmare balancing that game. Personally I don't care if we have skill trees It wont effect me much because I could live with them or without. I'm just basically stating the obvious and very much an ongoing trend since XI.... sub NIN anyone?