[dev1033] Ideas for a Two-Tier Class System: Jobs on Top of Weapon Specializations

[Anathiel]

The system that I wanted to implement, let's say dark knight. its gladiator > dark knight. When leveling my gladiator I also level my dark knight, upon reaching the next tier of dark knight I can choose to put bonus points in whatever option is given to optimize the play style I want. I reaaly feel focusing on my warrior idea isn't really the point I wanted to make, rather it was an idea to further augment base classes using a title that would play differently than drk and pld. You're not evolving the weapon spec, you're augmenting your weapon spec with abilities/spells from the title. There's no need to put a cap on your weapon specilization because titles are interchangable and you level your title with your weapon spec.

Now I 100% agree with you that certain titles should be allowed to carry over their spells to any given equipped weapon spec but, the point of the percentages is to augment a play style that will allow you to play a weapon spec in a idfferent manner using the bonuses given by the title. Its not limiting a spec to a title, its opening up the weapon specs with the title.

Cairdeas and I had a very indepth discussion on what you're talking about right now about a week or two ago and the schematics for what I'm trying to describe are much more well written by him than by me. I hope you'll go back and look for them. And to be honest I feel like we're. Having the same idea, I'm just not explaining myself properly. The reasoning behind my warrior class was to be that jack of all trades title you mentioned. The title is just there so you can make your marauder a better tank, or your gladiator a better DD. I think I shouldn't ha veused warrior as the example though it seems to have worked against me. But without the bonuses given by a title really, that just means your weapon specialization determines your play style with little room for customization that could properly be implemented in most playing situations.

[Kirith]

I understand better what you mean now, i must have indeed missed some past post or thread...

I will go look up the schematics, but if you went as far as making schemes we should make some sort of poll, wrap them up and try to present a basic idea together with OP's rationale to a mod.

Meanwhile i stand by my first point: if a class is redundant, like MNK, it should be simply eliminated, because MNK is virtually a pugilist with less skills. This is not the case for WAR, which can be given generic bonuses, being a generic title. And even if that was a problem, we should probably present the raw principle and let the devs eventually decide which skills to give to each title.

EDIT: please point me to a specific discussion because Cairdeas has dozens of started threads with a bunch talking about the combat system.

[Cairdeas]

I understand better what you mean now, i must have indeed missed some past post or thread...

I will go look up the schematics, but if you went as far as making schemes we should make some sort of poll, wrap them up and try to present a basic idea together with OP's rationale to a mod.

Meanwhile i stand by my first point: if a class is redundant, like MNK, it should be simply eliminated, because MNK is virtually a pugilist with less skills. This is not the case for WAR, which can be given generic bonuses, being a generic title. And even if that was a problem, we should probably present the raw principle and let the devs eventually decide which skills to give to each title.

EDIT: please point me to a specific discussion because Cairdeas has dozens of started threads with a bunch talking about the combat system.

Monk is not a Pugilist with less skills. Its a more specialized fighter then that.

Pugilist is just "One who fights with fists."

a Monk is a spirtual fighter who uses their mind and their vit more then their brute strength to deal damage. They get bonuses for having higher vit then strength as well as bonuses for not wearing heavy armor over wearing lighter faster armor.

Also Monks are not religated to fighting with just their fists like the weapon class Pugilist is. They also have

Fist, Foot, Nunchacku, Spiritual Abilities, some incarnations (White Monk) have healing powers based in White Magic but powered by Vit, Bo-staffs, Clubs, and many other weapons.

Right now yes. Monk would be limited to Pugilist if you wanted the biggest bang for your buck and to be depicting the visual presence of that job. But Monk is a Pugilist while a Pugilist is not a Monk. Enforcer which is a known coming soon Weapon class dealing with clubs/twohand blunt weapons possibly would also be a great choice for Monk, though a Monk Conjurer would be akin to a White Monk from FFTA without having to implement White Monk directly at first.

[Kirith]

I meant the FFXI monk.

There are obviously gameplay differences between the two and i have never leveled my MNK to 75, but for the sake of simple characterization what most people thought of monk was "class that hits stuff with H2H weapons, has lots of hp and has healing skills"

Kicks in MNK were only a passive skill that could be implemented as a high level PUG skill as well and PUG in FFXIV has also the best favors from light gear. At the same time, as a class with naturally high HP it's still a good idea to have high VIT.

Even if you made a MNK title in the FFXI sense with added "spiritual" characterization, you would only be giving it more healing spells and could perhaps make its VIT count for damage, but that would just screw the point allotment system.

So, PUG is indeed a FFXI MNK with less skills.
Making a MNK title in FFXIV would mean giving it skills and characteristics the original FFXI MNK didn't have. I just want that to be clear.

[Cairdeas]

I meant the FFXI monk.

There are obviously gameplay differences between the two and i have never leveled my MNK to 75, but for the sake of simple characterization what most people thought of monk was "class that hits stuff with H2H weapons, has lots of hp and has healing skills"

Kicks in MNK were only a passive skill that could be implemented as a high level PUG skill as well and PUG in FFXIV has also the best favors from light gear. At the same time, as a class with naturally high HP it's still a good idea to have high VIT.

Even if you made a MNK title in the FFXI sense with added "spiritual" characterization, you would only be giving it more healing spells and could perhaps make its VIT count for damage, but that would just screw the point allotment system.

So, PUG is indeed a FFXI MNK with less skills.
Making a MNK title in FFXIV would mean giving it skills and characteristics the original FFXI MNK didn't have. I just want that to be clear.

Actually. Having the Monk Job title unlock Kicks and kick combat maneuvers over fist maneuvers would be how you'd implement Kicking, instead of unlocking them for pug, let monk be the catalyst for the kicks.

[Anathiel]

I meant the FFXI monk.

There are obviously gameplay differences between the two and i have never leveled my MNK to 75, but for the sake of simple characterization what most people thought of monk was "class that hits stuff with H2H weapons, has lots of hp and has healing skills"

Kicks in MNK were only a passive skill that could be implemented as a high level PUG skill as well and PUG in FFXIV has also the best favors from light gear. At the same time, as a class with naturally high HP it's still a good idea to have high VIT.

Even if you made a MNK title in the FFXI sense with added "spiritual" characterization, you would only be giving it more healing spells and could perhaps make its VIT count for damage, but that would just screw the point allotment system.

So, PUG is indeed a FFXI MNK with less skills.
Making a MNK title in FFXIV would mean giving it skills and characteristics the original FFXI MNK didn't have. I just want that to be clear.

I noticed halfway through your reply you talked about screwing up point allotment, and I've narrowed it down. I don't think you've realized that a lot of the ideas in this thread are based upon getting rid of the point allotment system and making stat distribution be automatic based on equipped weapon spec.

And to be honest giving monk skills, abilities, and traits that pug doesn't have is a pretty easy feat, you have every final fantasy from 1 to draw ideas from. Kicking just being a primary one, white monks being another class to draw from. I really doubt getting new material for monk would be a big problem. Especially if they do implement a weapon spec that deals with maces and clubs.

[Kirith]

I noticed halfway through your reply you talked about screwing up point allotment, and I've narrowed it down. I don't think you've realized that a lot of the ideas in this thread are based upon getting rid of the point allotment system and making stat distribution be automatic based on equipped weapon spec.

And to be honest giving monk skills, abilities, and traits that pug doesn't have is a pretty easy feat, you have every final fantasy from 1 to draw ideas from. Kicking just being a primary one, white monks being another class to draw from. I really doubt getting new material for monk would be a big problem. Especially if they do implement a weapon spec that deals with maces and clubs.

Many ideas, but not OP's. Point allotment already goes into the balance topic so i'm not assuming it will be scrapped for sure, even though it probably will be anyway.

As i said earlier it's indeed not difficult to make some skills up. What i struggle to see is the point in leveling GLD or MRD with a "war" title, or a PUG with a "mnk" title considering that the classes already have most, if not all, the features the related jobs had in FFXI.
Yes, some people would go for leveling a generic fighting class, or for "pure hand to hand monk", but does it conceptually make sense to have a mnk using a lance with lancer skills and having few title-specific monk skills while you already have a PUG that looks and acts like a monk?

My basic idea is just to avoid potential awkward titles that feel and play redundantly with certain classes.

By extension i think removing stat bonuses to titles is the best way to do that: you can still keep OP's rationale, make specialized titles that excel at particular tasks and keep classes viable for casual or solo play styles.

All this keeping in mind that the current system exists to allow full customization not only to make playing classes more interesting, but also to allow casual players to be well-rounded in any circumstance.

Personally i wouldn't say a single negative word if they just copy-pasted FFXI strict role-specific jobs in ffxiv, but that's not gonna happen.

[Anathiel]

Many ideas, but not OP's. Point allotment already goes into the balance topic so i'm not assuming it will be scrapped for sure, even though it probably will be anyway.

As i said earlier it's indeed not difficult to make some skills up. What i struggle to see is the point in leveling GLD or MRD with a "war" title, or a PUG with a "mnk" title considering that the classes already have most, if not all, the features the related jobs had in FFXI.
Yes, some people would go for leveling a generic fighting class, or for "pure hand to hand monk", but does it conceptually make sense to have a mnk using a lance with lancer skills and having few title-specific monk skills while you already have a PUG that looks and acts like a monk?

My basic idea is just to avoid potential awkward titles that feel and play redundantly with certain classes.

By extension i think removing stat bonuses to titles is the best way to do that: you can still keep OP's rationale, make specialized titles that excel at particular tasks and keep classes viable for casual or solo play styles.

All this keeping in mind that the current system exists to allow full customization not only to make playing classes more interesting, but also to allow casual players to be well-rounded in any circumstance.

Personally i wouldn't say a single negative word if they just copy-pasted FFXI strict role-specific jobs in ffxiv, but that's not gonna happen.

But how could you keep open customization without being locked into any particular weapon specialization without using the stat bonus system? The reason I reccomended the stat bonus system was not only to encourage unlocking the advanced jobs, but to actually make them better than weapon specializations.

And to be honest it wouldn't be redundant, let's say the spec tree or grid for monk was DD, healing, and tanking (just for an example don't take it at what I really want) you couldn't just equip pugilist and excel at all three, you could put conj as a sub or gladiator as a sub. And honestly titles would have their own weapons or be able to use weapons regardless of weapon spec right? Or maybe have that be one of thbe tier unlocks. The ability to use your titles weapon on any class equipped after tier 2 or 3.

Lol, I really just want you to see the benefits of the stat bonus system. Its about leveling up your title, people won't feel they've actually leveled a job unless they see a dmg increase, or something like that.

I'd really like to know carpe's thoughts on the stat bonus when leveling to the next tier as part of a grid system that let's you choose your bonuses.

[Aldaine]

Amazing and completely necessary thread. Bringing back traditional classes and styles would be the way to go, no matter how its handled. Applause to thread maker. =P

[Cairdeas]

Nah that wont work Ana, The classes as they are are dedicated to the Weapon itself. They are Weapon Classes in the Disciplines which are part of the Armoury System.