The Problem(s) with Paladin

[AlphaDragoon]

Great read, and I agree completely. At this point it does seem like a complete overhaul of the overhaul is necessary to bring Paladins up to where they need to be.

Also, I really hope the devs realize that part of the issue (with Paladin tanking as well as most of the party stacking/preference issues such as favoring WAR/BLM/BRD) is that the encounters keep heavily favoring ranged fighters and AoEs over single target attacks. There needs to be a variety, where the people who don't do as well at AoE (like PLD, and MNK) can thrive.

[Vanguard319]

Try using PLD on Garuda. The output is better and Riot Blade does wonders to push total DPS. It isn't perfect but people need to be a bit open-minded in how they approach single-target fights.

Sadly they don't want to, they have already decided pld sucks, it's like trying to counter conspiracy theorists with logic and rational thought: if they can't counter your argument, you are a part of the conspiracy.

I disagree with the OP, pld AF gives more enmity than war's, the mnd is important for self heals and base damage, my only real problem with pld is that it seems to be hurting for accuracy.

[Eagleheart]

Sadly they don't want to, they have already decided pld sucks, it's like trying to counter conspiracy theorists with logic and rational thought: if they can't counter your argument, you are a part of the conspiracy.

I disagree with the OP, pld AF gives more enmity than war's, the mnd is important for self heals and base damage, my only real problem with pld is that it seems to be hurting for accuracy.

It is not at all like that. (O.o) Firstly, that enmity is divided amongst five pieces, and, as mentioned earlier, enmity is very incremental in effect. Dev Team more than doubled the efficacy of Touch of Rage materia for this very reason. Additionally, Heavy Darklight has such massive enmity bonuses for the same reason. Stonewall Earring itself is nearly equal to Paladin AF's enmity bonus.

You are not part of any conspiracy, but your thinking is not backed up by the statistics in the game. (o.- ) And while the AF hat is indeed effective in increasing your secondary mod for damage, I invite you to consider your primary mod for a moment.

You also did not consider the division of Cure enmity amongst multiple targets, and there are many and varied better choices for Paladin equipment than Artifact. You also discounted the assertion of Antagonize and its lack of parallel in Paladin's arsenal, as well as many other points in mine, and others, posts.

Further evidence on the incremental nature of enmity in XIV: Maddening Potion. (o.0 ) Check it out, it's pretty crazy.

[Daniel_Fury]

Nicely made thread

I find that for AoE tanking, Gladiator is a much better use.
Say for example Cutters Cry, I can charge up 1k TP with Invigorate, rush in and use my usual hate skills but I can Keen Flurry my War Drum allowing me to use it twice in the time of its original cooldown and I use sentinel with Leg Sweep for the extra punch with hate.

When I get to Princess, I will swap to Paladin and tank both the Princess and Marshall at the same time with no emnity issues.

The only issue with the Princess fight is that I sometimes pull too many ant adds to me while tanking both bosses and can cause a nasty death if WHM's aren't prepared.

I use HP, MND and STR with a bit of VIT in my gear build. I almost always use my AF body and sometimes Crown if I don't need the extra HP (or 32 MND melded onto helm).

I agree that Paladin has been insignificant to Warrior lately but since cyclone got nerfed, it hits 500 damage crits on 53 enemies for me and I feel that AoE hate can be sketchy since 1.22a hotfix.

[Vanguard319]

It is not at all like that. (O.o) Firstly, that enmity is divided amongst five pieces, and, as mentioned earlier, enmity is very incremental in effect. Dev Team more than doubled the efficacy of Touch of Rage materia for this very reason. Additionally, Heavy Darklight has such massive enmity bonuses for the same reason. Stonewall Earring itself is nearly equal to Paladin AF's enmity bonus.

You are not part of any conspiracy, but your thinking is not backed up by the statistics in the game. (o.- ) And while the AF hat is indeed effective in increasing your secondary mod for damage, I invite you to consider your primary mod for a moment.

You also did not consider the division of Cure enmity amongst multiple targets, and there are many and varied better choices for Paladin equipment than Artifact. You also discounted the assertion of Antagonize and its lack of parallel in Paladin's arsenal, as well as many other points in mine, and others, posts.

Further evidence on the incremental nature of enmity in XIV: Maddening Potion. (o.0 ) Check it out, it's pretty crazy.

yes I've used maddening potion before, and I've also successfully tanked as a pld even before the last patch. The numbers only go so far, as your calculations can't account for an individual player's skill, you can easily have a pld who tanks well, and a war who can't tank to save his own life.

As for the enmity of pld af, they can fix that easily enough by adjusting the enmity each piece of AF has, I suspect that there will be some more adjustments on the devs part.

[Eagleheart]

yes I've used maddening potion before, and I've also successfully tanked as a pld even before the last patch, also the numbers only go so far, your calculations can't account for an individual player's skill, you can easily have a pld who tanks well, and a war who can't tank to save his own life.

Making the most of an inferior class is not the topic of this discussion. (O.o) The topic is what makes Paladin inherently inferior, and what can be done to address that.

Can you successfully tank as Paladin? Yes. Is it more trouble to do so? Doubly yes.

Where in particular does Paladin's specialty lay, and is it fulfilling its role in that specialty?

What are its inherent weaknesses and design flaws?

What can be done to amend said flaws?

A good case cannot be made for the efficacy of Paladin by saying that there are bad Warriors out there, and to be honest, saying that "the numbers only go so far" is tantamount to conceding the point that Paladin is inherently inferior to Warrior.

EDIT: In discussing this post amongst my LS (as I have been yapping their virtual ears off the entirety of the day with regards to formatting and presenting this thread) one of my LS mates remarked

"I agree that skill has something to do with the jobs the average player base all having the same issues with pld has nothing to do with skill but the design of the job"

I thought that a good way to describe the matter. ( O.o)

[SwordCoheir]

I posted this in another thread, but I thought I would post it here for all thoughts and purposes just to kind of help outline the disproportional superiority WAR has over PLD, based on some of the new developments from the 1.22a hotfixes.

Not that I don't give credit for SE trying to balance jobs, but something does come to mind that concerns me especially after having a chance to play around on WAR some. I can't really fathom what possessed SE to trade out the defense boost in favor for a parry boost on Rampage.

Most of us know that spamming Steel Cyclone religiously really kept it's defense effect from really building up and the disproportionate D-Lv factoring never really let the defense boost amount to much anyways. Now SE has essentially given WAR/MRD a direct damage mitigation boost which currently already had an edge on over PLD/GLA. After messing around in the Natalan for a few hours, I was pretty amazed by the ability to spam Overpower six or seven times in a row on more than a few occasions even though I was spamming Steel Cyclone on a regular basis.

Now trading damage in one form (Lowered Steel Cyclone damage) for another (Spamming Overpower) is one thing, but parry in itself offers more potential damage mitigation than Shields do. I wonder how SE intends to ever make PLD a viable tank when they keep inadvertently boosting it's main competitor in the process.

[Momita]

hmmmm only on HP and Coincounter?
have you tried after hotfix? just curiosity

cuz yesterday i've tried PLD full AF with COincounter and never shotted with 100Swing... now not say if lucky or something.. in these days i'll try again (after, anyway, we die cuz party member take hate after animal instinct >_> but never oneshotted with pld)
after 2 tries with PLD full AF i tried with WAR full AF.... nerf hp ftw .-. 4300hp without equip melded HP..... 2 times.... 2 oneshot from 100swing.... parry rate where are u? T_T anyways after i boosted my HP -> 4700+ and no problem... but my impression is that PLD take less damage (and casting when blocks is fucking... fucking! )

I like this PLD ^^ now time to perfect my ability but i think now it's a good tank (but some little correction needed) but WAR from Coincounter and maybe Miser (for Enduring March) still better.... today i'll try in Cutter's and in a future from garuda XD


ah PS. don't always use excuses that PLD can't be used because he'll do less damage and then not make SR.... not his DPS the problem then... (and not the WAR DPS the difference) ^^

[Brannigan]

Why would anyone wear full AF? It's really bad. Go to the wards and spend 100k on some upgrades.

[Daniel_Fury]

Just finished CC as WAR tank.
Hate was an issue I was Antagonizing/sentinel on steel cyclone. I lost hate and wiped.
I checked my log to notice cyclone critting 79 damage on Chimera....
Then I used PLD, Riot, Goring and Spirits all hit 300+ dmg on chimera and no hate issues whatever.

That cyclone nerf really shows on high defense bosses. I used to crit at least 400 on chimera with cyclone