The Problem(s) with Paladin

[Noir]

Greetings.

Allow me to preface my post by saying that I am very grateful to Yoshi P, Dev Team, and the community reps for all their hard work on FFXIV, and I profoundly wish for 2.0 to be a blockbuster success. ( o.O) I pay for two accounts, I have been since payment requirement resumed, and I will continue to for the foreseeable future.

I'd also like to say to the community reps who will hopefully read this (;@_@) Your patience astounds me. If I had your job, I'd have nuked the entire forum from orbit by this point. Thanks very much for all that you endure.

My post today is in regards to Paladin and how it still falters in its assigned role. Paladin struggles to find a niche in the current Jobs lineup, and I think it very important to consider that it is not tweaks and adjustments, but rather, a concept change, to bring Paladin up to speed with the current, and, to the best of my knowledge, future direction of the game.

Below are the points I've prepared. (>> ) Tried to make 'em quick and concise, and easy to pore over.


(1. HP
Strong oneshot moves are a much greater threat to PLD than WAR. Period.
Shield block does not proc on 100-tonze swing, for example. Further addressed in Defense.


(2. Offense
Paladin has no capacity to assist in speed runs, and its existing abilities are not sufficient for crowd control, even when not gunning for speed runs. Even Circle Slash was taken away.

Game is AOE-centric, Paladin has nothing for that. Cannot even use Foresight/Overpower, because Paladin is denied the capacity to parry.

(3. Defense
Parrying is superior to Shield block, period. Takes 2-3 shield blocks to equal damage mitigation of one parry.

Warrior received an ostensible nerf in Rampage adjustment, nerf actually turned into a big buff. Paladin's half-a-minute guaranteed blocks do not compete with Rampage parrying enhancement.

If a Warrior is under attack, their Rampage is not going to fade, it's going to stay. This goes doubly if they are under attack from multiple targets. Concept design of Rampage adjustment flawed.

Paladin is no better at dealing with magic attacks than Warrior. Until 1.22a hotfix, it was, in fact, worse, due to Fighter's Cuirass/Vengeance. Hallowed Ground is 15 minutes, and so does not give Paladin a real edge against magic monsters, as it's a 20-second desperation ability, on a long cooldown, not something you use to keep damage manageable throughtout a fight.

All of the above ignores that any critical hits the Warrior lands replenishes the Warrior's HP due to Rampage, and that this HP resupply is inexhaustible, unlike Paladin's hapless MP pool.

Warrior damage mitigation now equal to, arguably superior to Paladin, IN ADDITION to their higher HP.

(4. Mods
Paladin's offense is further hampered by requiring MND as their secondary.

MND is hard to gear for when tanking. VIT and HP are what a tank usually loads up on, VIT happens to be secondary mod for WAR's damage, and Warrior does not need to build for HP, leaving them free to gear for offense, which Paladin cannot do without compromising their already-weak survivability.

Paladin suffers a loss of STR from GLA, further hampering its already-low offensive stats and capacity.


Bullet points, the tl;dr version of tl;dr!


- Warrior survivability higher than Paladin

- Warrior utility in multiple-target situations vastly superior to Paladin

- Warrior defensive capacity equal to or superior to Paladin

- Warrior equip optimization for tanking allows them to gear for additional damage without sacrificing survivability. Paladin must gear specifically to match Warrior survivability, thereby falling further behind offensively.

- Warrior offensive capacity vastly superior to Paladin, marginally less so after 1.22a. Riot Blade is still eighty seconds, and Rage of Halone is 30. That makes no sense. Warrior combos are faster, and still stronger.

- Removal of enmity bonus from Phalanx hurt. A lot.
No, seriously. Phalanx was actually useful when it had an enmity bonus. Now, it's just a low-damage throwaway, or opener for Spirits once a minute.

- Second Wind is freebie. Holy Succor is not.

- In order to actually get any MP from Outmaneuver, you have to pair it with Divine Veil. Waste of an ability slot, since you only ever use Outmaneuver if Divine Veil is ready.

- Warrior AF is useful. Paladin AF is not.

- No, seriously. Two pieces of gear with either straight enmity, or an enmity bonus effect, and offensive stats/solid HP (in the case of Fighter's Burgeonet and Fighter's Breeches) is vastly superior to five pieces with Enmity from 1 to 5, and lackluster tanking stats.
There is a good reason Touch of Rage materia got doubled in potency. Enmity is very incremental in effect, Paladin's AF enmity is *worthless*.

- Paladin is at a disadvantage while kiting, needs to stop and cast magic to heal itself, Warrior has Second Wind/Featherfoot, can dodge a hit, restore HP, keep going. This might not be so bad if Warrior was not already superior in all other categories. Instant cast Holy Succor would help this, an abrupt halt can be managed with turn-to-face-target H key before starting cast.

- Flat Blade's high enmity modifier is good, but the weaponskill itself is rather weak. Strong targets reduce the effectiveness of Flat Blade to being roughly equal to Skull sunder, perhaps a little weaker.
Again, this might not be such a problem if Warrior was not already superior to Paladin in every other category.

- Warrior has Antagonize IN ADDITION to Sentinel. Antagonize with AF head is a 1.65x enmity multiplier, 1.5x without. Paladin has nothing even remotely close. WAR AF head also has +60 HP, small bonuses to their damage mods, and +10 crit rate. PLD AF head has a good MND bonus in comparison, but no HP.

- Antagonize affects all abilities. Sentinel, at this time, only affects damage from auto-attack and weaponskills.

- Collusion. Partially nerfed, but another enmity advantage over Paladin, while Warrior already has no problem competing with/besting Paladin in enmity output.

- Cure enmity is divided up amongst active opponents, according to player testing. Enmity incurred from a Holy Succor divided amongst six to eight targets is inconsequential.

- Stat comparison:

HP: WAR +400
MP: PLD+700 (irrelevant to WAR)
STR: WAR+20 (mod for both PLD and WAR)
VIT: PLD+12 (mod for WAR)
DEX: WAR+21 (Parry/block rate)
INT: WAR+30 (Irrelevant to both)
MND: PLD+21 (mod for PLD)
PIE: PLD+30 (With all that PIE noted there, PLD has a total of +8 magic evasion over WAR. Fellow posters, please do not begin ranting about how Paladin is superior on magic mobs. That number is flatly irrelevant, and we all know it.)

Summation:

Paladin fails to be a superior single-target tank.

Paladin fails to be a superior multiple-target tank.

Paladin fails to be a superior offensive tank.

Paladin fails to be a superior defensive tank.

Warrior is still superior in all categories. They might have actually increased their lead now with Rampage becoming better at defense.

Paladin cannot even adequately defend itself, let alone party members. The concept of Cover is slightly flawed in XIV, because if your target is out amongst the mages, your most immediate problem is not the physical attacks the mob will deal to its current target, but rather, the powerful AOEs that it will use instead. Cover does not actually provide much in the way of protecting the party.

A damage reduction aura would be a better application for Cover, or a new ability once level cap is raised, rather than simply replacing Cover as it is now. The central point is that Paladin needs to be able to do three things effectively;

(1. Keep the target/targets enmity on the Paladin.

(2. Survive the enemy's assault.

(3. Minimize the risk to the rest of the party as they attack the target, and facilitate the no-holds-barred beatdown of the target. Hate redirection, damage mitigation auras, enfeebling of the enemy (defense down, evasion down, crit evasion down), et cetera. Divine Regen is a good idea in this vein, and a good start. Collusion falls under this category, but a better idea for Paladin is, again, mitigation of incoming damage for the party, and enhancement of the party's offensive capacity against the enemy.

The latter is doubly important if Paladin is to remain void of AOE damage potential.

Give parties a real reason to want a Paladin along.


Thank you for your consideration. (_ _ ) {/bow}

Quick fix for Palladin. Give a holy buff/skill to the sword. And throw some undead mobs/ bosses.

There is no other way around. Anything beyond that will make other classes suck with all nerfs and the bitching won't ever stop. That what other MMO's I played had to do to make paladin worth being in a party.

[NoloeTazier]

With Paladin you should be able to have a party with 1 WHM and have that other WHM become a damage dealer. But even then it all comes down to an AOE fest and again Warrior wins. Antagonize, Collusion, Vengeance all are great abilities even without AF boosts. Paladin's abilities require the AF to even be useful and they barely are. 800 defense on a Paladin should be a sexy stat but its not simply not. Paladin will never be able to match Warrior in damage and it shouldn't be able to. Paladin should be able to sponge up damage better than Warrior but again not the case. And the sad thing is even if you have an extra DD, generally when they're melee its just too much AOE from bosses and regular mobs alike for 1 WHM to cure.

[MrLion]

So question for the OP...how does this patch (1.22a) reflect in relation to all the points that you mentioned on your first post? Because I do think you have some really good points, PLD is supposed to be THE tank not A tank so it needs a lot of fixing.

[SwordCoheir]

What's funny/sad is that of all the archetypal roles and Square trying to fill those roles, the Paladin is the most basic "Tank" Role (the ROCK / WALL that the party can rely on to just take a beating and keep on going and draw hate well) that's usually easiest to get right. Instead they're tiptoeing around the fundamental ways to really FIX Paladin and giving us tiny "tweaks" here and there.

I hope we get a Dev Response on this.

It's kind of funny though, even with rock wall archtypes they had capability to do decent damage in Final Fantasy games and most other MMO's and RPG's out there, and SE seems reluctant to try it with PLD/GLA though they're designing all it's game mechanics to work with a damage = hate mentality.

[Duelle]

It's kind of funny though, even with rock wall archtypes they had capability to do decent damage in Final Fantasy games and most other MMO's and RPG's out there, and SE seems reluctant to try it with PLD/GLA though they're designing all it's game mechanics to work with a damage = hate mentality.

This. Tank DPS matters. It's always mattered, but people took a long time to figure it out. It wouldn't be a problem if you restricted all tanks to a one-handed weapon and a shield, but when you start tossing in two-handed tanking and so on, you realize that unless you even the playing field again someone is going to be left out. That's when developers realized tank DPS matters.

Quick fix for Palladin. Give a holy buff/skill to the sword. And throw some undead mobs/ bosses.

This won't fix anything, and I say that as one of the ret paladins that massively benefitted from undead mobs in Naxxrammas and Icecrown Citadel. Being situationally better on a mob type only prolongs the innevitable.

[SwordCoheir]

This. Tank DPS matters. It's always mattered, but people took a long time to figure it out. It wouldn't be a problem if you restricted all tanks to a one-handed weapon and a shield, but when you start tossing in two-handed tanking and so on, you realize that unless you even the playing field again someone is going to be left out. That's when developers realized tank DPS matters.

Aye, like I said in my post on the previous page that gap in base damage is growing. Part of PLD's hate gaining abilities are attributed to the damage it can deal on Spirits/Flat Blade combos, weak damage = weak returns no matter the modifier. Hate gaining JA's are static so they're gonna grow weaker against DPS's Damage as levels rise, and if FFXI has taught us anything about game mechanics is static values can't compete after a point in the game. So the only thing you can do without overhauling the system itself is boost the overall base damage of a weapon to a comparable level with other weapons so at least a job with no DD abilities can at least function at an appropriate level and allow GLA who has access to DD capabilities to become a somewhat competent DD.

This won't fix anything, and I say that as one of the ret paladins that massively benefitted from undead mobs in Naxxrammas and Icecrown Citadel. Being situationally better on a mob type only prolongs the innevitable.

Correct. Creating a single useful niche doesn't help the job it just pigeonholes it.

[Cenewulf]

question is: what do ppl really want pld to be? shall it put out more dmg to be able to be on par with war when it comes to speed runs and "effeciency"? or shall it generate more enmity and mitigate more dmg so other jobs can do more dmg without needing to worry about drawing hate?
i prefer the later, but i guess it's hard to accomplish with limited abilities and most of current endgame content.

I like the later as well. Paladins in almost every MMO have had the role of being on the front lines taking the all the damage while everyone else with their axes and pew pews take down the bad guys. Basically its supposed to be like a small war: You dont go up against an army (in a medieval or medieval fantasy) setting with no shield wall thats just dumb. Paladin is meant to be that shield wall that keeps them busy while the spears and archers (dps classes) are busy firing and stabbing away.

just my 2 gil on the matter

Btw OP you made some very good points

[Duelle]

I like the later as well. Paladins in almost every MMO have had the role of being on the front lines taking the all the damage while everyone else with their axes and pew pews take down the bad guys. Basically its supposed to be like a small war: You dont go up against an army (in a medieval or medieval fantasy) setting with no shield wall thats just dumb. Paladin is meant to be that shield wall that keeps them busy while the spears and archers (dps classes) are busy firing and stabbing away.

Likewise, the paladin can use their combination of holy magic and melee prowess to kick ass and take names. Granted, I don't expect a Final Fantasy paladin (not named Agrias) to be anything like that, but it is potential that should be kept in mind.

Aye, like I said in my post on the previous page that gap in base damage is growing. Part of PLD's hate gaining abilities are attributed to the damage it can deal on Spirits/Flat Blade combos, weak damage = weak returns no matter the modifier. Hate gaining JA's are static so they're gonna grow weaker against DPS's Damage as levels rise, and if FFXI has taught us anything about game mechanics is static values can't compete after a point in the game. So the only thing you can do without overhauling the system itself is boost the overall base damage of a weapon to a comparable level with other weapons so at least a job with no DD abilities can at least function at an appropriate level and allow GLA who has access to DD capabilities to become a somewhat competent DD.

Pulling something from my years spent tanking in WoW, I remember that pally tanks had more attacks with additional effects and a lot of the stuff they did to hold aggro involved holy magic. A warrior had to spam Sunder Armor to get 5 stacks, Heroic Strike as a TP/Rage dump, Revenge/Phalanx after any dodge/block/parry (Hint hint...), and Thunderclap/Circle Blade (hint hint hint...). Pally's had to use Consecrate, Holy Shield (kind of like a version of Punishing Barbs, but procced only on shield blocks), and Hammer of the Righteous (think Fast Blade cooldown, but could hit up to three targets in front of you).

What I'm getting at is that if WARs DPS while tanking comes from physical sources, then maybe PLDs DPS while tanking can come from more magic-related things. I'm beginning to formulate a redesign of GLA, and as soon as I'll finishg it I will troll the GLA forums with that. =P

[FuriousCupcakes]

Looks like I'm very late to the party but it's good to see SwordCoheir and Duelle in here, and you have some very good points Eagleheart. I've updated my GLA/PLD thread after reading through quite a bit of this one and have plugged a link to this thread on the front page of my thread. I hope you don't mind me linking mine here so input can be taken on the changes I'm thinking about: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...828#post685828

I did not add any of the changes or additions to PLD discussed here to my page so as not to claim or confuse the ideas of others as my own. There are some very good ideas in here and I hope anyone (Devs!) not yet reading this thread find their way to this thread from mine.

[Griss]

Well said op.

Mrd/war has always been the beat things to pulp type of tank. Its pretty simplistic straight forward and an Axe to the face is always the best contingency plan.

Gld/pld has always idealistically been the damage mitigation tank. The hitch in the giddyup as you so perceptively stated is that the game current does not allow for that. When you are fighting mobs where having a tank is a necessity the level difference math mumbojumbo strips away any edge that there "higher defense" is supposed to give them.

I can categorically say there is currently no situation where I would say, hey we might want to have a pld in the party. They take the same amount of damage as a war. Have less emnity generation at there disposal and are not as self sufficient. And further more in a game where 1 dmg = 1 point of hate they will always be playing catchup. Even more so now that the other close range dd classes are getting powered up.

Pld/gld does not need another band aid at this point, it needs a total retrofit.