Paladins issues: Parry rate and MP

[Enfarious]

Not really. You said full parries should still be present in the proposed tanking model for PLD. I am arguing that they should not and parries should just be an additional mitigation-type proc that acts cumulative to block chance, as PLD would already gain plenty from being able to parry in the form of Overpower and Foresight.

Ok not "exactly" I said partial parries should happen, and full parries should also, but with far less frequency, I also said that they should be impacted by the size/mass of a weapon/shield for both parries and blocks. :When I say should happen I'm talking
20~30% rate for 5~10% reductions
10~20% rate for 10~20% reductions
1~5% rate for 80%+ reductions

where a shield should have more like:
50~60% rate for 20~30% reductions
30~40% rate for 40~50% reductions
20~30% rate for 60~70% reductions
Of course those would be altered by stats/gear/traits/materia but as base rates

You mean aside from that fact that people at the level cap are already all using the same gear for the most part? It would go with the grain rather than against it.

People do use the same gear now, for the most part, but it's a lack of options, there aren't 3 sizes of shields for a 50 PLD that provide the kind of flexibility I'm talking about. Having the one with the highest rate/reduction is currently an option, what I'm looking for is 3 sizes where you CAN'T get both at the highest on a single shield.
Small (think buckler diameter no larger than your wrist to elbow) = very high block rate, low reduction;
Med (typical spartan sized round shield, 2~3x the length of wrist to elbow) = well middle of the road for both;
Large(think kite~tower 1/2~3/4 of your total height)= low block rate, maximum reduction;

If all 3 were available people could choose but they aren't not really, right now there's 1 "best" for everything pretty much. It doesn't encourage individual play styles, but rather the all too typical borg drone play style.

[Duelle]

Ok not "exactly" I said partial parries should happen, and full parries should also, but with far less frequency, I also said that they should be impacted by the size/mass of a weapon/shield for both parries and blocks. :When I say should happen I'm talking
20~30% rate for 5~10% reductions
10~20% rate for 10~20% reductions
1~5% rate for 80%+ reductions

where a shield should have more like:
50~60% rate for 20~30% reductions
30~40% rate for 40~50% reductions
20~30% rate for 60~70% reductions
Of course those would be altered by stats/gear/traits/materia but as base rates

I can understand what you're proposing better, though I am still against a full parry (attack is parried, negating that entire attack round) from occurring. I'll agree to disagree. Mitigation is easier to balance around than the chance of fully avoiding enemy attacks.

People do use the same gear now, for the most part, but it's a lack of options, there aren't 3 sizes of shields for a 50 PLD that provide the kind of flexibility I'm talking about. Having the one with the highest rate/reduction is currently an option, what I'm looking for is 3 sizes where you CAN'T get both at the highest on a single shield.
Small (think buckler diameter no larger than your wrist to elbow) = very high block rate, low reduction;
Med (typical spartan sized round shield, 2~3x the length of wrist to elbow) = well middle of the road for both;
Large(think kite~tower 1/2~3/4 of your total height)= low block rate, maximum reduction;

It works well on paper, but this fell flat on its face in FFXI. You never used small or medium shields unless you were skilling up shield or could just not equip tower/kite type shields. PLDs in XI got their cake and ate it too in the form of Aegis, which basically bypassed the entire shield design.

[Enfarious]

I can understand what you're proposing better, though I am still against a full parry (attack is parried, negating that entire attack round) from occurring. I'll agree to disagree. Mitigation is easier to balance around than the chance of fully avoiding enemy attacks.

Evaded attacks are full mitigation, it doesn't break mechanics unless it's happening entirely too often, if <1% of attacks are 100% parry/block your talking in the course of a 10 min. fight, 600 seconds w/ 3 sec delay 200 AAs, < 2 hits fully mitigated, which is what WAR gets now on ~70% of it's parried attacks 99.99% reductions.
But as you saw, when I talk rates, I don't mean we get 50% rate and 99% reduction across the board.

It works well on paper, but this fell flat on its face in FFXI. You never used small or medium shields unless you were skilling up shield or could just not equip tower/kite type shields. PLDs in XI got their cake and ate it too in the form of Aegis, which basically bypassed the entire shield design.

That's exactly my point though isn't it, IF they make the shields/weapons to support playing different ways. In XI they didn't they broke the whole concept, made a single weapon/shield for every class that was end all be all. They removed options and everyone either joined the collective and wore all the same shit or they got called gimp and were kicked from parties and generally ostracized.
My point there is IF the options are present and I CAN gear jobs in a way that they're EQUALLY able to do the job while wearing different gear than the person standing next to me we get back choice. If there's a lg/med/sm shield that serve a purpose to different play styles and work well @lvlcap, if they go and do the same thing and create 1 shield/armor that is just blatantly better than anything else then of course this all goes out the window and we end up wearing all the same crap again.
XI had alot of game breaking, well not breaking, but player choice removing items. To be the "best" you could be you had to have on "this" gear, Aegis was one of those things. I pray that we don't end up with another of those things, but rather that we get 3+ forms of Aegis-grade shield/armor/weapon to suit multiple playstyles, if someone wants to be a hyper block rate shield tank they shouldn't have to play in the same gear w/ the same stats as the hyper dmg reduction low rate tank. They should both be encouraged by having gear options that are rewarding to both styles, not a single shield that takes it all. This obviously goes for tons of other gear as well, and the reason for not gear swapping in combat. 10k people wandering each server wearing or in search of the "best" gear so we're just a pack of clones again, yeah it makes it easier if you only have to design one sword/shield/axe/helm/etc. for the, end but having 5 of each that can be equally useful to different play styles would allow more variety in player styles and choices.

I'm not saying don't make uber EG gear, just saying make more than 1 of each that are equally uber. Unless the goal is to have everyone in the same thing after a couple years.

[Duelle]

That's exactly my point though isn't it, IF they make the shields/weapons to support playing different ways. In XI they didn't they broke the whole concept, made a single weapon/shield for every class that was end all be all.

They broke it because they needed Aegis to be a special snowflake and because on some level they knew the system for shields didn't work.

My point there is IF the options are present and I CAN gear jobs in a way that they're EQUALLY able to do the job while wearing different gear than the person standing next to me we get back choice. If there's a lg/med/sm shield that serve a purpose to different play styles and work well @lvlcap, if they go and do the same thing and create 1 shield/armor that is just blatantly better than anything else then of course this all goes out the window and we end up wearing all the same crap again.

False choice in gearing is no choice at all. I know where you're trying to go with that, because the primal and moogle weapons are trying to go in that direction. I can already see that falling to pieces once the theorycrafters start getting around to parsing DPS and assigning stat values per class and per job.

[Enfarious]

They broke it because they needed Aegis to be a special snowflake and because on some level they knew the system for shields didn't work.

And it was, but it didn't have to be the only thing at the end, that was the flaw.

False choice in gearing is no choice at all. I know where you're trying to go with that, because the primal and moogle weapons are trying to go in that direction. I can already see that falling to pieces once the theorycrafters start getting around to parsing DPS and assigning stat values per class and per job.

Ummm I'm one of them, and there is a choice, when it comes to weapons the choice is
1) Hi dmg output low acc, relying on WSs to get most of your DPS
2) Lo dmg output hi acc, relying on AA at a fast rate and hi acc to makeup for less damaging WSs
3) WS dmg focused, acc attk crit rate crit dmg, multi hit WSs and crit WSs
The list is alot longer but end of the day, IF classes and jobs are designed well these options can be viable on every class/job, from a purely mathematical standpoint it's reasonable to say that a person who focuses on acc will hit more often and therefore WS more often offsetting the increased dmg of a person who misses more but hits for more dmg.

False choice is only created if the gear and/or formula aren't properly balanced. In XI I carried different weapons/gear for every job because sometimes the acc wasn't a must and I could bump the dmg, but other times it was a must. Course in XI 60 pieces of gear/job and mid-fight gear swapping made things a little obnoxious, I don't want that back. Just saying that there is choice, so long as there is something that achieves the same effect in a different way. It's when 1 piece is out performing others that the choice fades away and the "elitist" types come out to tell you how bad your gear is.

At any rate I'm fairly certain that this is not something we'll agree on, even if 1+1=2 in math, this is a matter of opinion and mine isn't likely to change, I believe that the dev team CAN accomplish this, I also believe that with enough parses IF the weapons currently labeled "best" will prove to all have advantages and disadvantages that will balance them enough that people WILL be able to use what they like vs. what's "better".

Materia is a wonderful balancing system as well, you want the added WS dmg output, take the hi dmg hi delay weapon, then add materia to your other gear to offset it's weaknesses.

[Vanguard319]

Duuude speaks truth. As long as your shield is present, you do not have a chance to parry.

An old game mechanic that was carried over. Gladiators did not have a passive chance to block before. During this time, you could parry an attack. In order to have a chance at blocking, a Gladiator would have to select the Guard command. During this time, the gladiator could not parry, since they had their shield actively raised. Since most gladiators were constantly hitting guard to keep their shield up anyway, SE made the shield auto-block, but at the cost of reduced block rate. However, since the game things your shield is always out, gladiators do not have a chance to parry unless the shield is removed from the equation.

Battledance Materia and equipment that yield +parry rate will enhance your parry chance ever so slightly.
Likewise for Swiftwall Materia and equipment that yield +block rate.

Interesting, if gld had access to greatswords, this could be used to go a more DD route without sacrificing too much defense, could be good for crowd control