UNDERCUTTING....

[Krausus]

actualy, even then, some of the new items cost ALOT more then people realize

what you think is a markup, actualy isnt at all in alot of cases


some of the items needed to make darksteel/rose gold can only be vender bought...for 100k
so when that item is expensive, think about how many of those vender bought items were involved in making it

well like I said I can understand for some of the new items, also I'm not sure if it is based off the rank of the hamlet or GC rank but those items from the vendor can drop to 50K

[Wolfie]

Then one day someone comes along and sells the item for 1mil and you never get to sell it again...TRUE STORY

Then I move on to the next item that nets me profit. Economy 101.

[TheVedis]

well like I said I can understand for some of the new items, also I'm not sure if it is based off the rank of the hamlet or GC rank but those items from the vendor can drop to 50K

hamlet drops are pretty rare, i sell mine for 1-2mil each, and those are just the tools

if you saw how much we could be making off the ore we turn in, the branches we turn in etc etc, then again, its not a markup to sell them for that much, its almost like taking a loss also by selling them so low
and yes, thats low for those items


you really have to be on the crafting/gathering end to understand alot of this, someone who hasnt touched them and doesnt play the market like we do only sees the price and assumes alot

[Themule]

I love how people keep saying "deal with it" or "stop whining". Everyone HAS dealt with it and nobody is saying that SE should do something about undercutting itself. The points that are trying to be made are that the current system is rewarding normal people for botting and punishing people that actually do the work by having an asinine system for selling and reselling. Things that take hours to produce or gather aren't being sold cheap because the person is nice or the person can make them cheaper. Its because people with bots spend little to no time doing the work to actually gather/produce said items so they could care less about how much they sell them for because they just need to make room to sell more. Most of us have had to "deal with it" and HAVE, and are still rich as a result. I'm just sick of spending so much time "dealing with it" in the wards by repricing things to make room on my retainers and I don't want new players to just have to "deal with it". The goal here is to either encourage SE to crack down on bots, make a more streamlined market system or...hopefully both. Us players are responsible right now for having these discussions as we are largely responsible for how this game turns out. By the time 2.0 hits, these issues need to be addressed or people are going to say "they had a year+ to iron out these kinks and a whole player base full of feedback that told new players to just deal with it". I want this game to be as great as it can be!

[Matsume]

I love how people keep saying "deal with it" or "stop whining". Everyone HAS dealt with it and nobody is saying that SE should do something about undercutting itself. The points that are trying to be made are that the current system is rewarding normal people for botting and punishing people that actually do the work by having an asinine system for selling and reselling. Things that take hours to produce or gather aren't being sold cheap because the person is nice or the person can make them cheaper. Its because people with bots spend little to no time doing the work to actually gather/produce said items. Most of us have had to "deal with it" and have and are still rich as a result. I'm just sick of spending so much time "dealing with it" in the wards by repricing things to make room on my retainers.

The goal here is to either encourage SE to crack down on bots, make a more streamlined market system or...hopefully both. By the time 2.0 hits, these issues need to be addressed or people are going to say "they had a year+ to iron out these kinks and a whole player base full of feedback that told new players to just deal with it". I want this game to be as great as it can be!

QFT, SE just needs to add fishable monsters and aggro mobs between and near gathering nodes that force players to use the stealth function (something a bot could'nt recognize) to fix gathering bot issues.

As far as leveling bots and farming bots i'm sure a similarly easy method could be implemented but I havn't thought of one yet.

[DarkDepravity]

You do realise that the kind of price fixing (cartel) a lot of you are describing in wanting stable prices is forbidden in most civilized countries outside of "special" circumstances with regards to the consumer markets?

Not to mention, you're looking only at the gatherer/crafter side of things, the part of the game population that isn't enjoying that part, can't as easily burn through gil as those of us who craft/gather, and artificially high-kept prices would make it harder for them to get in. It would certainly suck for those who might pick up the game post 2.0 (assuming any do), and want to roll on an established server if prices were artifically kept high. Of course, you could argue that they can get into crafting/gathering as well, which they could do, which would make it even harder for you to make money.

You want more money for your stuff? differentiate your merchandise, make HQs, materia multimelds, make something that makes YOUR stuff worth more than everyone else.

This is how the market works, the buyers will go for the ones who sell the cheapest, or the best, or the ones that they like (branding). You can go Harrods, you can go Walmart, or you can look for niches or something in between.

And yes, I DO actually have a degree in economy, and I DO have bot/min 50, along with several crafts.
(although I must admit, I do lean towards Keynesian economics, which to a certain extent invalidates my entire argument :P)


edit: I fully agree on measurements needed to deal with botting though, but that's not what the topic title talks about!

[TheVedis]

QFT, SE just needs to add fishable monsters and aggro mobs between and near gathering nodes that force players to use the stealth function (something a bot could'nt recognize) to fix gathering bot issues.

As far as leveling bots and farming bots i'm sure a similarly easy method could be implemented but I havn't thought of one yet.

agro mobs at gathering points wont stop the new hack/bot ive seen people using lately

one that lets them gather the same node over and over again til it despawns

theyd only need find that 1 noed that isnt in agro range, and refind it every hour or so

and putting agro mobs at EVERY node would just annoy all crafters too much

[VytasBismarck]

Am i the only one who thinks that this thread wouldn't exist if people would have a basic understanding of whats going on in the markets?

/facepalm

[Matsume]

You do realise that the kind of price fixing (cartel) a lot of you are describing in wanting stable prices is forbidden in most civilized countries outside of "special" circumstances with regards to the consumer markets?

Not to mention, you're looking only at the gatherer/crafter side of things, the part of the game population that isn't enjoying that part, can't as easily burn through gil as those of us who craft/gather, and artificially high-kept prices would make it harder for them to get in. It would certainly suck for those who might pick up the game post 2.0 (assuming any do), and want to roll on an established server if prices were artifically kept high. Of course, you could argue that they can get into crafting/gathering as well, which they could do, which would make it even harder for you to make money.

You want more money for your stuff? differentiate your merchandise, make HQs, materia multimelds, make something that makes YOUR stuff worth more than everyone else.

This is how the market works, the buyers will go for the ones who sell the cheapest, or the best, or the ones that they like (branding). You can go Harrods, you can go Walmart, or you can look for niches or something in between.

And yes, I DO actually have a degree in economy, and I DO have bot/min 50, along with several crafts.
(although I must admit, I do lean towards Keynesian economics, which to a certain extent invalidates my entire argument :P)


edit: I fully agree on measurements needed to deal with botting though, but that's not what the topic title talks about!

This is the greatest part of your post, you admit to the irony and in a sense invalidate what you just have said.

I'll spare you the leson in economics but for the sake of others reading, Keynesian Economics supports the idea of government intervention to stabilize the prices of certain goods and services that can lead to innefficient macroeconomic outcomes. And the fact that Keynesian economics was the standard economic model during the latter part of the Great Depression, World War II, Post War Economic Expansion and our current Global Financial Crisis makes eroneous your statement that "stable prices is forbidden in most civilzed countries"

Hell, China abuses Free Trade by artifically undervaluing the Yuan so as to increase exports by dereasing the price of their products relative to other countries.

But let's not get into that...

agro mobs at gathering points wont stop the new hack/bot ive seen people using lately

one that lets them gather the same node over and over again til it despawns

theyd only need find that 1 noed that isnt in agro range, and refind it every hour or so

and putting agro mobs at EVERY node would just annoy all crafters too much

I hope you're kidding...

I haven't yet seen this bot, and was simply surprised by the gathering bots however innefficient they may be. If this truly is the case I wouldn't be surprised to see teleport bots coupled with this mining hack that just teleports players to a new node then mines til it's done...

[TheVedis]

Am i the only one who thinks that this thread wouldn't exist if people would have a basic understanding of whats going on in the markets?

/facepalm

i personaly love the expert opiions coming in of people who dont craft or gather who think they know whats going on