Please Reconsider Splitting Main and Off-Tank Roles Based on Job

[Mikey_R]

While obviously speculative by nature, many of these concerns are rooted in "logical conclusions" because SE is rather notorious for pigeonhole designs then refusing to pull back on them when it doesn't work. The whole healer split is an example of that already wherein one pair of healers (Barrier) is demonstrably better than the other. Another example would be the Prange. They literally had to introduce a party buff then subsequently increase it because the Prange damage is so low nobody would ever bring them otherwise. Caster balance has been in the gutter for two expansions now because SE has refused to move off balancing around Raise.

So it's reasonable that people are a bit wary of how splitting tanks into two defined roles will be.

But we also have to take into account they are making massive changes to jobs and encounters, so things from the past, whilst it should be taken into account, doesn't necessarily mean it will still apply.

With Barrier and pure healers, Barrier tends to be better, as mitigating damage is better than just healing it up after. However, what if they change things, like making the barriers slightly weaker to allow space for the pure healers to use their healing strength. It also doesn't help when even Barrier healers have quite a wide kit for pure healing, whereas pure healers really do not have as good mitigation, so reducing the amount a barrier healer can pure heal for would be another. Just looking at White Mage, they seem to want to emphasise GCD healing more and not have many oGCD heals. Would a similar system also be present for the other healers? Who knows.

Phys ranged has always been a funny one, you have the selfish, the buff one person and the buff the entire party. That is going to be really hard to balance without making one of them too strong and/or too weak. However, with raid buffs going, it seems like jobs are going to be more focused on being selfish DPS, whilst bringing some amount of utility (even if it is zero in the case of Dragoon). So, hopefully, with the shift in how they are balancing things, it will be much easier to keep things balanced between them.

Caster balance is also whack due to the raise tax, I do remember him talking about removing the raises from casters in this next expansion though and that was before the release of Dawntrail. With Bard seemingly losing their esuna, it might stand to reason that the casters are also losing their raise, making them solely the healers responsibility. Since there won't be a raise to try and balance around, they can, again, make them balanced between themselves.

So, by the logic imposed here (though healer is by far the one with the highest amount of speculation here), we can assume they are going to be looking at everything to ensure as much balance as possible. It is fine to err on the side of caution, or even voice some concerns but acting like the sky is falling down based off of 1 slide with virtually nothing solid mentioned is taking it a bit too far.

As a prediction, since they have started to show some jobs in the first fan fest, which they have never done before, I suspect they will show more at the Berlin one at the end of July. At the very least I would expect Warrior as an off tank, Scholar as a barrier healer and Black Mage as a caster. That way, one of each role has been shown off in one way or another. It would be at that time, when we can compare kits that more valid criticisms can be made to hopefully try and make sure issues are ironed out early.

[Terjo]

Hey, first time posting but I had to chime in to agree with the OP.

The whole MT/OT split (at least in Evolved mode) feels like it came way too late in the game's life, and honestly, its main effect seems to be hurting the tank playerbase more than helping. Are they seriously trying to make Party Finder fill times even longer with this? Or is the goal to kill co-tank synergy?

I get the idea of giving tanks more distinct identities (like pure vs. shield healers), but forcing PLD + new tank as the "proper" MTs while turning WAR/DRK/GNB into dedicated OTs just feels restrictive. Losing access to strong counter mechanics or having suboptimal personal mitigation when you want to main tank sucks, especially if you're someone who enjoys flexing between the two roles.

Sorry for jumping in just to vent, but this change might genuinely hurt my enjoyment of tanking.

[Leonus]

This change is maybe one of the worst things they have ever done. All the talk about player freedom, just to do this? I have always played DRK as a MT with my partner playing WAR on OT, and now we just don't get to tank together anymore?Seriously? Not to mention how much of a nightmare PF is going to be. This needs to be fixed.

This is very dramatic. It’s not one of the worst. It’s not even that bad. People just done like the way it sounds without seeing it in action.

One has more self kit/counter abilities and the other party mit abilities.

Wait until Berlin before people start blowing chunks over this lol.

[Carighan]

Again the only issue here is the naming. Maybe, as the playerbase can be pretty dramatic at times.. See Bards and White Mages already inventing new ways for the sky to fall because their jobs got shown with semi-interesting gameplay instead of the current boredom they have but All Change Is Bad(tm) as is tradition in FFXIV.

If they choose names such as "Paragon" vs "Sentinel" or "Defender" vs "Guardian", then all is fine. Yes, "off tank" implies being less good at tanking a little bit. There's a slight indication there, yes. Hence a different naming scheme would be better.

If we truly want to mirror regen healer vs barrier healer (positive specifier + role name without qualifier) then I would suggest "mitigation tank" vs "protection tank" but really more fantasy names like above work better IMO.

The whole MT/OT split (at least in Evolved mode) feels like it came way too late in the game's life, and honestly, its main effect seems to be hurting the tank playerbase more than helping.

Few notes:

• This split existed, player-induced, for years already. Players have always figured out which tank is more optimal as tank vs as blue DPS. If anything, the current interchangeability implies the new difference will be absolutely minor as well.
• Healers being split already implied at *some* point, tanks will do the same, as more and more get added.
• FFXIV isn't the only MMORPG, this is not new or noteworthy in the grand scheme of things.
• What is weird is how late this comes, and this is a crucial flaw of FFXIV but in a different way than many seem to assume. FFXIV changed too little in the past. Other MMOs massively iterate their setups every expansion, often ripping out entire core concepts and replacing them, or leaving some behind.

If FFXIV basically re-did class implementations every expansion like an MMORPG ought to, such a split would have happened back in heavensward or so, and since then have been modified 3-4 times. Tanks would have been very specialized at some point (compare early-TBC era WoW?), very unified at others, and over time they would have found a middle ground that works.

We're seeing the beginnings of that process, just 10+ years late. But better late than never, in particular because the existing system proved to be untennable (1+ expansion ago, so now in Dawntrail it's laughably fragile as a concept, they really were under a lot of pressure to rip out current classes whole and replace them which they're finally doing).

[Terhix]

Losing access to strong counter mechanics or having suboptimal personal mitigation when you want to main tank sucks, especially if you're someone who enjoys flexing between the two roles.

Every ultimate and multiple savage fights have both tanks take heavy damage, there is no way in hell 3 of the 5 tanks will be "suboptimal" for that or the meta will be to not take offtanks at all. At worst the OT jobs will have some group mits or boss damage debuffs that don't stack, and MTs will have the counter mechanic, so if you stack two of each subrole you will just have to coordinate better, just as two barrier healers have to coordinate right now, neither regen nor shield healer is a "suboptimal" healer.

[Valence]

But we also have to take into account they are making massive changes to jobs and encounters

Wait, they are changing encounters?
Beyond getting out of the 2min meta constrains I mean...

[soymalklatte]

As a Gunbreaker main, I welcome a new challenge to the status quo of the game. We already sort-of have something of a soft MT-OT split, where Gunbreaker and Paladin are undeniably meant to protect other party members, whereas Warrior and Dark Knight are meant to soak damage, dish damage, and heal to a greater extent. (Nascent Flash UwU). Like I said, it's a soft split at best, and has little bearing on whether one can actually MT or OT, but the intention is clearly there, in my opinion. I am moderately surprised to see that they want Paladin to be a Main Tank and for Warrior and Dark Knight to be Off Tanks, but I think that the split is a good thing, and will introduce new challenges and encourage tank mains to learn the intricacies of both sides, which will ultimately be good for people who enjoy tanking as a whole. I mean, we already have a split between pure healers (WHM/AST) and shield healers (SCH/SGE). I'm not terribly surprised that they want to differentiate the tanks to give them a little more job identity.

This is ultimately about job identity, which Evolved Mode intends to emphasize. And if every tank ultimately does the same thing in Evolved Mode, I really think they would be failing in that goal. The tank jobs need to have an identity just as much as the myriad DPS jobs do.

[Oizen]

WAR's entire mitigation kit would need to be compeltely rethought if its going to be an OT.
DRK basically already fills this role.

[RaionKansen]

I would like to see what they have planned for OT in higher end content before I say much on the change.

[Derio]

I agree with the OP. I think the wording that they used may be off. Right now based on what was shown.

All tanks can reduce enemy damage-- Reprisal
PLD and new tank can counter enemy damage
PLD can provide protection for individual-- intervention
PLD can provide protection for the party- wings & divine veil

Right now PLD as what was showed can do everything that was stated in terms of both MT and OT which is why I think their splitting is a wording issue. At EU fanfest we should get more clarification to calm our fears. However people are right to be cautious. Especially what happened with AST to where now playing AST and WHM in high end content can be a death sentence.