Please just... Just change Living Dead

[Shurrikhan]

Hold on, you are now telling me that the parts of Living Dead that are entirely a beneficial uniqueness compared to the actual reason you press the invuln (to, eh, not die?!) are unfair because they might not happen 100% of the time?

Benefit is best considered in net, not just its ideal case. See RNG mitigation.

Even at its best, though, LD's only source of mitigation is identical to that of Holmgang -- wasting would-be overkill. It can add to that a 7500p self-heal (equivalent to 5770p of healer healing), but both the mitigation and the self-heal occur only if it pops. Else, it does nothing.

And again, LD is not a 20s death prevention. It's 1 hit + 10s, wherein the first 10s leading up to that 1 hit are damn near irrelevant for the simple fact that every potentially threatening thing in this game is telegraphed. Its value, then, becomes merely that you can trim up to 9s out of 300s off its cooldown (negligible) and can double-weave other actions even in the moment just before you'd need the invuln because you slightly pre-popped it (QoL). Not 20s of invuln. Not even close. If you're not getting that self-heal, it is worse than Holmgang or Superbolide for the simple fact that it has a 51-60s longer CD than the first and less sustain typically generated than the latter for any situation that'd actually call for an invuln.

The invuln already doesn't waste.

By comparison to most other invulns, an LD that never goes off is a waste, for the simple fact that most invulns are not just death-prevention now. Hell, they haven't been since ARR. Hallowed Ground and Holmgang both were not used only for emergencies to prevent a death; they were means of milking additional sustain.

That's kinda the counterargument against asking for a change here, that LD fulfills its function independent of whether you got healed or "died".

Then Hallowed Ground would "fulfill its function" even without a single point of mitigation, just from the fact that one 'needn't fear death' for 10s. And yet, again, that's not been the whole of its role since release.

the weird assumption that LD isn't "just" an invulnerability-button that ensures you do not die for at least 10 seconds. Which it does. It absolutely does.

To assume that LD, which can do a hell of a lot more than just preventing death and which deserves parity against other skills (or consequent kits of jobs with an invuln) that each do a hell of a lot more than just preventing death is not a "weird assumption". That it prevents death for 10s in a game where there is zero chance of a freak sudden untelegraphed death does not put it on par with things that give actual throughput atop said prevention of death for 10s or have a shorter cooldown.

It does what you press it for.

Like any other modern invuln, I press it for the total sustain it can provide. Of those, only one other (Holmgang) can be remotely screwed over, and not half so badly as LD (merely wasting the mit rather than also the full self-heal).

And it's so refreshing to actually see an ability squeeze so much uniqueness

What uniqueness beyond its ability to get screwed to uniquely great extent in exchange for being pre-poppable to negligible or zero benefit? The rest is just Holmgang with (an empowered) Divine Magic Mastery II granted for 10s.

Your sentences goes even further as a counterargument to changes, because it shows a poetic symmetry:

- A healer has an ability that guarantees the healing, but not the protective value of the heal triggering automatically (it might just not save the target).
- A tank has an ability that guarantees the protective nature (you won't die in the next 10s, no matter what), but not the self-healing the ability can sometimes provide.

There is no "poetic symmetry" to that because there is no "protective value/nature" separate from sustain except where the sustain required is unknowable, which is never the case in this game. There aren't even any random blows dealing half a tank's life, let alone random one-shots.

A heal like ExCog going off under 50% health is not inherently "protective" or death-preventing; it's just a way to front-load a heal from one Aetherflow cycle into the next.

An invuln meanwhile, like any other defensive, serves no purpose unless it provides actual sustain -- be that in the form of mit [max and current HP increase, barrier, or %DR] or healing [percentile like Macrocosmos, target-health-based, or SP-based/flat]. Preventing all incoming damage once already at 1 hp via Holmgang or WD's death-prevention is sustain. If it doesn't actually manage that, though, the invuln was wasted; mere 10s of peace of mind (collapsible with the auto-attack immediately after) is not an effective use of an invuln, and parity should not be judged according to each skill's least effective use.

[Carighan]

An invuln meanwhile, like any other defensive, serves no purpose unless it provides actual sustain -- be that in the form of mit [max and current HP increase, barrier, or %DR] or healing [percentile like Macrocosmos, target-health-based, or SP-based/flat]. Preventing all incoming damage once already at 1 hp via Holmgang or WD's death-prevention is sustain. If it doesn't actually manage that, though, the invuln was wasted; mere 10s of peace of mind (collapsible with the auto-attack immediately after) is not an effective use of an invuln, and parity should not be judged according to each skill's least effective use.

And yet here you are, not actually wanting Hallowed Ground and Superbollide to be changed to block incoming shielding, lest their sustain is wasted.

It's a weird argument, isn't it? Why is it a waste if LD doesn't get to provide you 0-5 GCDs worth of healing and if you "never die", yet somehow the other tank invulns aren't a problem if external sources cause you to not actually mitigate or mitigate much with them (WHM AoE Stun spam, shields, big burst killing the mob group too quick, anything really).

Because, and yeah sure, maybe this ought to be a universal thing? If you press your invuln, you are guaranteed to get the maximum sustain it could have provided no matter what? But then how would that work? After all, a healer would rightfully be annoyed if a DRK griefing by pressing their LD mid-ability blocks their big 3m CD benediction. Would heals "slide off" to other targets? What if none exist? Would CDs be refunded? Should invulns refund their CDs based on how much damage you took vs how much you could have? Like, only take 30% of your HP as damage during your 10s invuln -> get 70% CD back?

... now that I think about the last one sounds kinda interesting as an idea, especially if it also applies to healing and damage CDs if they overheal or overkill.

(edit)
How universal is your view on this, btw? Like, Shadowed Vigil is guaranteed to provide its big burst heal as it works exactly like Excog, right?
But, if healers keep you up enough to never drop below 16%, that 20% HP-increase from Great Nebula on poor GNB did nothing, right? How would that be changed to ensure it isn't, well, wasted mitigation? And if not, how is that not wasted optional sustain but LD's self-healing is? And don't get me wrong, if applied universally I can see the point behind your argument, but that'd be a lot of cases of "potentially wasted bonus sustain/mitigation" to cover.

[Alice_Rivers]

That is a point with the supposed success condition of an invuln being that you must 'die', I don't see it as griefing to use my benediction when I'm not in control of someone's HP and it is logical if a tank can see their HP isn't under control to invuln so I don't see that as griefing either, if both buttons are pressed at the same time for the same reason who is in the wrong?

[Shurrikhan]

And yet here you are, not actually wanting Hallowed Ground and Superbollide to be changed to block incoming shielding, lest their sustain is wasted.

It's a weird argument, isn't it? Why is it a waste if LD doesn't get to provide you 0-5 GCDs worth of healing and if you "never die".

Again, it's the difference between a sustain tool having some waste due to overcapping (such as a heal upon heal) vs. having conditionally zero contribution (such as a would-be heal being prevented from going off).

Everything else that behaved similarly has been changed for good reason.

If you press your invuln, you are guaranteed to get the maximum sustain it could have provided no matter what?

Jesus, this is like your third strawman already.

Not "guaranteed maximum", but merely offering control or visual intelligibility as not to have even its chance at any throughput prevented.

That could be the DRK being able to activate WD on its own any time during LD's (the pre-activation period's) duration. That could be it at least granting the self-heal effect at the end of LD. That could be a mere skull and doom timer appearing above the DRK during LD and, recolored, during WD. Whatever.

After all, a healer would rightfully be annoyed if a DRK griefing by pressing their LD mid-ability blocks their big 3m CD benediction.

Not my idea. Nothing to do with me. So why the hell is this a response to me? Wrong. Poster.

Should invulns refund their CDs based on how much damage you took vs how much you could have?

No. Merely like the changes to ExCog, skills shouldn't have even their potential value (e.g., whatever portion wouldn't be overhealing or mitigation duration spent on non-combat) completely prevented by others' actions beyond the normal being PKed by some encounter mechanic.

... now that I think about the last one sounds kinda interesting as an idea

Cool. Still has nothing to do with anything I wrote.

Like, Shadowed Vigil is guaranteed to provide its big burst heal as it works exactly like Excog, right?

That's not merely my "view"; it's literally how the skill works. It's how everything except LD works.

But, if healers keep you up enough to never drop below 16%, that 20% HP-increase from Great Nebula on poor GNB did nothing, right?

No, that's not how Great Nebula works. The bonus is a ToB, both increasing max eHP by 20% (in total, 100%, given the 40% DR atop it) AND a 20% of maximum health heal (worth ~42% of normal max eHP) regardless.

And if not, how is that not wasted optional sustain but LD's self-healing is?

Because both Great Nebula and Shadowed Vigil literally cannot have their healing effect prevented from going off, while LD's can be. What is confusing about this?

The first can only go to waste by overhealing, and the second cannot go to waste from anything other than receiving zero would-be damage over its whole duration. The third can be made to absolutely nothing.

And don't get me wrong, if applied universally

The only thing missing from a universal application is LD; the rest of the constraints are your head-canon and nothing to do with what I've said.

a lot of cases of "potentially wasted bonus sustain/mitigation"

No, it's one. Literally just one. Everything else follows the same norm: you can overcap [healing], fail to use up [bonus health / barriers] before their duration ends, and can happen to take little would-be damage during a [%DR]; since the ExCog change soon after its release (with everything since, except LD, in keeping with that change) nothing else is prevented from having any of its effects by which one even could get value out of the skill from going off.

[Kishin12345]

It is the same with TBN. They should finally change it so that the shield breaks after the timer expires. It happens so often that the shield just doesnt break and i lose 1 edge.....

[Shurrikhan]

Tbh, I'm more fine with TBN than LD. TBN at least has only 60% to 62.5% the cooldown of its analogous skills (the 24-25s "on-demands") without that constraint. LD has 125% its nearest CD without its constraint. (Without that self-heal, which requires the constraint, LD has only Holmgang's effect but with an additional healing cost AND a 25% longer CD.)

[Alice_Rivers]

It is the same with TBN. They should finally change it so that the shield breaks after the timer expires. It happens so often that the shield just doesnt break and i lose 1 edge.....

That speaks to a different problem whereby HP scaling is already absurd and damage in dungeons and normal trials/raids has been left behind. Friend of mine who mains DRK tends to throw their TBN at healers because it still pops that way. I think the cheapest (and thus most likely) way the devs could fix it is to just extend the duration to 10 or 15 seconds with a trait. I would like to see it implode if it doesn't break doing damage to everyone and everything within 5-8y (DRK included) for damage proportionate to the amount of shield left.

[Kishin12345]

That speaks to a different problem whereby HP scaling is already absurd and damage in dungeons and normal trials/raids has been left behind. Friend of mine who mains DRK tends to throw their TBN at healers because it still pops that way. I think the cheapest (and thus most likely) way the devs could fix it is to just extend the duration to 10 or 15 seconds with a trait. I would like to see it implode if it doesn't break doing damage to everyone and everything within 5-8y (DRK included) for damage proportionate to the amount of shield left.

That is what i do, too. Either not use it or throw it at a squishy to be certain it pops. I just brought this up because it fits the "you dont get guaranteed value" discussion and i know that tbn has lot of complainers, too.
It is not really comparable to LD because just cooldown and value are way too different but i wish they would change tbn a bit.
Just what you suggested would be cool, too. Something that happens when it doesnt break, so you still get "something" at least and dont feel like you wasted it completely.

[DivineP]

LD does need a macro. I'm forever over healing before I see the icon. I've done it just now in puppets bunker. But you need to learn to communicate.

[Carighan]

LD does need a macro. I'm forever over healing before I see the icon. I've done it just now in puppets bunker. But you need to learn to communicate.

I mean maybe just an obvious visual effect (that isn't turned off via the spell detail settings, but IMO none of the invulns should be affected by that and should have persistent effects while they're ongoing?) would go a long way to alleviate everyone's issues, right? Because then it'd be obvious that the DRK has turned on Living Dad (or the Paladin HG, or whatever).