Please just... Just change Living Dead

[ShionAsrai]

Omg bruh the healer isn't greifing by doing their job and healing you. If you cant adapt to not being able to use unnecessary invulnerability buttons in casual content where its not needed then you need to realize that mmos arent for you. If the healer isn't paying attention to chat stop and make them. Your the tank, you control the flow of the dungeon. Grow some extra skin. Communicate or accept you wont need to press living dead. This is asking for so much nonsense.

Worst part is im certain you think you are 100% correct that healers healing is grief because you wanna press ld.

You're mistaken on your beliefs about me and i really don't understand what gave you such an idea, perhaps it's the fact that i said you don't need to waste your heals on huge packs of pulls when the tank has invulnerability that made you start thinking that i think healers healing is griefing which is the most weirdest claim i've ever heard be it if it came from me or if it came from you as a claim of what i would think.

When i say griefing i strictly talk about certain healers who heal on Living Dead and NOT HEAL when the ability is wearing off which has happened enough times already.

This might come as a shock but trust me, it's not the tank that's controlling the flow of the duty aside from pulling enemies, now to your suggestion of growing some skin i would ask that you grow some cells and read what i exactly said and meant because there's no hidden meanings there.



With these being said, i think i'll start maining warrior and take myself out of here as even if my healer is bad or griefing on purpose i won't be the person dealing with it. See you guys on the posts about Warrior having too much heals and that playing healer is getting boring.

[Supersnow845]

You're mistaken on your beliefs about me and i really don't understand what gave you such an idea, perhaps it's the fact that i said you don't need to waste your heals on huge packs of pulls when the tank has invulnerability that made you start thinking that i think healers healing is griefing which is the most weirdest claim i've ever heard be it if it came from me or if it came from you as a claim of what i would think.

When i say griefing i strictly talk about certain healers who heal on Living Dead and NOT HEAL when the ability is wearing off which has happened enough times already.

This might come as a shock but trust me, it's not the tank that's controlling the flow of the duty aside from pulling enemies, now to your suggestion of growing some skin i would ask that you grow some cells and read what i exactly said and meant because there's no hidden meanings there.



With these being said, i think i'll start maining warrior and take myself out of here as even if my healer is bad or griefing on purpose i won't be the person dealing with it. See you guys on the posts about Warrior having too much heals and that playing healer is getting boring.

Your point has literally zero consistency. Living dead is a triage situation between the healer and the tank, sometimes the tank gets the timing wrong, sometimes the healer is an idiot……..okay I mean that’s literally how an MMO works, the tank and healer have to cooperate with each other and the “solution” to change LD just exists so that the tank can have their “moment” regardless of the healer.

Think about it this way, i recite excog you then you push living dead with this proposed “solution”, you just zeroed out my critcog. Did you not rob me of my ability to have my moment because you wanted to have yours? Tanking and healing is a conversation and it doesn’t always go flawlessly. The ability isn’t “not working as intended” because a healer didn’t understand what it was and ignored it. That’s an inexperienced healer doing what they think is right. That’s the point of cooperation, sometimes things go wrong because you someone else did something wrong

It speaks a lot that your point drifts to “guess I will just play WAR so I can do whatever I want regardless of your input” and somehow frame that as a failing of healers

Also just a note for the other post on the other post, emboldening random phrases and words isn’t “improving clarity”. Emboldening “it’s bringing the ability closer to its original purpose” doesn’t make it more true because it’s bold

[Shurrikhan]

Your point has literally zero consistency. Living dead is a triage situation between the healer and the tank

How is it any more so than spamming heals on a HP-capped Paladin under Hallowed Ground, though? And, yes, I do mean HP-capped, as unless you prevent the DRK from triggering Walking Dead, they would heal themselves to full anyways, so the party healing wasted is nigh identical. (Only the portion after triggering WD and then losing health again could the healer actually support.)

Put that in the context of any other invuln. "Don't worry, I can heal you through it without your Superbolide that you already popped, so I'll continue healing unnecessarily." Except, now... there's an actual punishment for doing so. It's far worse than merely wasting an opportunity.

That a tank hits too many other defensives at the same time for it to likely proc even if you, the healer, provided absolutely no further sustain is a reason to ignore it, sure, but the mere fact that you can heal through it is not a reason to do so.


Moreover, returning to the more core subject... if only one singular invuln can be screwed over in that way, isn't that a reason to either change it or reduce the leniency of the others in similar fashion?

Not saying it needs to be whatever has been suggested here (I'd be plenty happy with just a big doom timer hanging graphically over the DRK if anything more would be too homogenizing), but it is an issue unique to Warrior (not that it ever lacks for sustain in those same circumstances anyways) and (to a much greater degree) DRK, with it being especially clunky for the latter.

I've had quite a few times now, usually when a DPS d/cs at start so pulls go long or the healer can't be bothered to AoE and the DPS aren't doing well either, that I've eventually needed to schedule in an LD to survive, used a macro saying as much beforehand, and even popped a sound effect on activation... only to have the healer just barely ensure it can't go off so I die and curse me out afterwards for so much as suggesting they might glance at their text-bubbles at least on occasion ('no in-game graphic, not my problem') or at least actually heal enough to keep one alive after preventing their target's sustain.

The whole idea is to pull a huge pack which is rare in dungeons

No, it's... definitely the norm. The last time I saw less than a wall-to-wall in a daily roulette outside of the absurdly long hallway on Anyder was... Stormblood, maybe?

And you'd probably see invulns there more often if things weren't dead before you'd use even half whatever kit wouldn't be available by its part in the next W2W pull.

[Supersnow845]

I mean at its core it’s not if you break it down to what living dead will do IF it procs, but just because healing is theoretically a waste when the skill does go off correctly doesn’t mean the skill is poorly designed or needs changing. In the example of using heals in a way to stop the skill from going off that is poor triaging on the healers part (or the healer is an idiot) but that doesn’t change the skill itself.

I don’t buy into the whole “why is one the outlier” because that’s been the death keel of every piece of unique design this game has ever had.

People will always have some amount of bad experiences when a skill you use can be affected by other people, I don’t think that’s in any way a reason to change the skill (other than maybe make it clearer what it does but the playerbase can’t even use their own skills in the bottom tier so I don’t think that will fix it for the 1 in a million players everyone “remembers” ruining their LD proc 4 years ago)

[Shurrikhan]

just because healing is theoretically a waste when the skill does go off correctly doesn’t mean the skill is poorly designed or needs changing

That hasn't been the complaint, though.

It's that, unlike other invulns, it can waste the healers' healing AND waste the DRK's self-bene AND waste 10s of death-immunity.

It's uniquely a skill that would, while active, often actually work better if the healer briefly ceased to exist.

for the 1 in a million players everyone “remembers” ruining their LD proc 4 years ago

I mean, I know some players can't get enough of reminding us that the forums aren't perfectly representative, but if "everyone" remembers this happening, it's probably more than 1 in a million.

Meanwhile, the most recent occurrence for me was... two days ago. Twice more just within the recent slew of DDOSes.

[Supersnow845]

And that’s the thing, I don’t think it’s wrong that a skill punishes you for using it wrong, that’s like 90% of the reason I play SCH. And on a tank or a healer I don’t mind if your support partner using a skill wrong punishes you. That’s part of a cooperative MMO

It’s the same argument as energy drain, it’s not the incorrect odd one out, it’s arguably the only good and well designed one because it encourages interplay. Hallowed ground is “thematic” but damn it’s a boring as hell button if you care about interaction

And I mean everyone can remember er someone messing up every class. I’ve had 3 messed up uses of hallowed in the last 5 days, should we change hallowed

[Shurrikhan]

And that’s the thing, I don’t think it’s wrong that a skill punishes you for using it wrong

Okay, but this is not (just) that. It punishes you for someone else reacting to your skill wrongly.

When you use Energy Drain, that ED isn't wasted by your cohealer likewise using ED when you two would need that AF for healing something without a GCD heal (which is the only way to react with a "wrong" decision); you still get the full benefit, even if it's less for the team overall than had your cohealer not overspent AF in turn.

This is not that.

[Carighan]

Okay, but this is not (just) that. It punishes you for someone else reacting to your skill wrongly.

But it... doesn't punish you? ������

Like that's the whole point, either way you survived.

Unless you want to argue that LD is insanely OP because it can, in theory, be just about 20s of death protection and hence it should work the way that Walking Dead only lasts as long as the remaining duration on living dead was? Because if yes, sure, make it so that you can't be healed while LD is up. I'd agree then.

[Shurrikhan]

But it... doesn't punish you? ������

It literally does, though?

Imagine, for instance, if Excog once again only went off if you drop below 50% hp and only had a far briefer duration in which to go off.

You place Excog on a target whose HP is, with no other changes, certain to drop below 50% hp within that time. You spent an Recitation and AF, totaling a 60s, 45s, and a third of a 60s CD, for that purpose. It's worth 1200cp.

Now, once you've placed it, your cohealer prevents it from going off, thereby wasting the 1200 cp via the 60, 45, and a third of a 60s CD.

That would be the equivalent of Living Dead, except that one wastes 7500cp via a 5-minute cooldown AND 10s of unkillability.

You could say the Excog "wasn't wasted" or that others' later actions "didn't punish" the first healer's simply because the target ultimately survived regardless, but that'd make no more sense than spamming heals on a topped-off target and saying that such "wasn't wasteful because the target survived". Moreover, that's 2 GCDs of healing wasted atop a would-be Energy Drain itself. You could likewise call that Excog a "non-healing button" and act baffled that anyone expected it to actually heal, but that is objectively having one's action completely nullified (not just incidentally devalued) by others' actions.

And what happened to Excog? It was changed to give the heal eventually even if the recipient didn't drop below 50% hp, changing it from being entirely wasted by others' actions to only wasting whatever portion overhealed. Why should we think it absurd that anyone would want the same for their invuln, of all things?

Unless you want to argue that LD is insanely OP because it can, in theory, be just about 20s of death protection and hence it should work the way that Walking Dead only lasts as long as the remaining duration on living dead was? Because if yes, sure, make it so that you can't be healed while LD is up. I'd agree then.

It's 1 hit + 10s of death prevention, though, not 20s. As soon as it's actually provides even a single hp of relative mitigation (via waste of overkill portion), you're down to 10s left, and that ability to nullify damage in that way is rapidly wasted by the self-heal-per-GCD to follow.

Though, yes, I'd be fine with it just having straight 10s of death prevention and then giving 10s of lifesteal upon that first would-be death if it happens at all, for instance.

[Carighan]

That would be the equivalent of Living Dead, except that one wastes 7500cp via a 5-minute cooldown AND 10s of unkillability.

Hold on, you are now telling me that the parts of Living Dead that are entirely a beneficial uniqueness compared to the actual reason you press the invuln (to, eh, not die?!) are unfair because they might not happen 100% of the time?

And what happened to Excog? It was changed to give the heal eventually even if the recipient didn't drop below 50% hp, changing it from being entirely wasted by others' actions to only wasting whatever portion overhealed. Why should we think it absurd that anyone would want the same for their invuln, of all things?

The invuln already doesn't waste. That's kinda the counterargument against asking for a change here, that LD fulfills its function independent of whether you got healed or "died". So all such a change would do is marginally pad the DRK's healing stats (since it ensures the self-healing happens every time) but for a loss of 1s-10s of effective death protection window. And maybe even the self-healing anyways, homogenization and all, and/or getting a significantly longer CD Paladin-style.

Your sentences goes even further as a counterargument to changes, because it shows a poetic symmetry:

- A healer has an ability that guarantees the healing, but not the protective value of the heal triggering automatically (it might just not save the target).
- A tank has an ability that guarantees the protective nature (you won't die in the next 10s, no matter what), but not the self-healing the ability can sometimes provide.

(edit)
I should make clear, my issue in this particular case is not the desire for homogenization (as annoying a trend in the community as that is) but the weird assumption that LD isn't "just" an invulnerability-button that ensures you do not die for at least 10 seconds. Which it does. It absolutely does. It does what you press it for. And it's so refreshing to actually see an ability squeeze so much uniqueness (doesn't even have to proc, in return a potential 1s-10s extra protection window, strong self-heal if actually needed, cool interaction with the party) while still keeping the exact same "I won't die in the next 10s" as the other tanks have.