In 12 years the game hasn't innovated

[Gurgeh]

I don't think I was too tired given your response here... You have ultimately given very simple and arbitrary reasons as to why a specific piece of content is not innovative, whilst also going on to say "It's subtle, nuanced and complex", like, you say there is nothing MMO about Island Sanctuary, but that was never the goal, and if we want to start weaponising MMO definitions... The entire game pipeline is basically built around it being a lobby simulator, more than it actually being an MMO.

If you sit there and say Chaotic is innovative, then there is absolutely zero reason whatsoever as to why Ocean Fishing, Ishgard Restoration, V&C Dungeons would not qualify as innovative as well.

I don't actually disagree with the premise of this game not truly innovating, but what OP has considered innovative is a bit reductive.. If we wanted to continue the train of thought with that.. Technically nothing is innovative since most of ARR was borrowed from 1.0, and technically not even savage is innovative because it's just a harder 8-man raids (glorified trials), and those 8-man raids? Well, see glorified trials.. Alliance raids? Well it's just a dungeon with 3 parties of 8.. All of this following the exact principle of "Well ultimate is just a harder, more gated version of savage".

Same issue with yours... You're basing an overwhelming amount of whether something is innovative or not on... Whether it is engaging, whether it has decision making and player agency, then also subsequently going on to say that, "well it's not 'arbitrary', it's subtle, nuanced and complex, whilst then also going on to say



Under this premise; your own premise... Can you really still say Chaotic is as innovative as you originally claimed?

TL;DR - I don't disagree with the premise of the original debate about innovating, but the conclusions here are split between reductive and arbitrary.

Frankly, it should be impossible to disagree with your chain of argument, and I don't. I agree, with your chain.
For me, and to answer the discrepancies you've highlighted... it just comes down to how generous one wants to be with giving them credit.
Gotta say, stepping outside myself, it looks a bit like desperation.
Honestly, I dint want to be hurtful, but I just pity CB3. Its tragic, utterly tragic what SE have done with CB3 legacy.
They've short changed the enterprise, and they've destroyed it. When i read "nothing good in 12 years". It's so harsh. A lot of people will have really cared and been proud of what they had built by the end of EW. And rightly so.
It was there. They built it. It was special. It was real.
But it was an MSQ house of cards built on the quicksand of what it's community had brought to the game over a decade, and this HIGHLY SOCIAL game could not afford to lose that community.

Its Fng tradgic. It pisses me off. (Not OPs post which I didn't read because i was tired, and was bad of me. I understand what they are saying and where they are coming from)

And the happy police that just wanted the doomers to unsub and quit spoiling their buzz, and for SE to carry on business as usual: short sighted, totally lacking in insight and intellect, and given that every human has motivations and agendas, I can't explain it by anything other selfishness in every case. Contemptible.

Its tragic. I pity CB3. Its sad.

They have innovated over 12 years. But not as much as they should have. At the same time they've also done a huge amount of 'reduction'. The net result, the title of this thread is too harsh, but we can all see where OP is coming from, and it shouldn't be a suprise to anyone with insight that these thread titles pop up.
Tragic.