RDM 7.4 changes and job identity

[ForsakenRoe]

I do not personally believe that the "fun" of Red Mage was stealing a melee player's position during certain content. When they design bosses, they have balanced party compositions in mind.

They designed bosses in the past where RDM needed to be in Melee range for its combo, but it somehow wasn't a problem for them back then. I don't remember any of these kind of complaints back in, say, Stormblood when RDM was introduced. If there were such complaints, surely this change would have happened sooner?

It's the encounter design that changed, not the Melee combo. So maybe, instead of saying 'wow it sucks to do the 2min burst when I have to go to Narnia to solve this mechanic', SE should consider not having the 2min burst be during a mechanic that sends the Ranged to Narnia? Have them go to Narnia for a mechanic at 1:30, then come in again for the 2min burst as the 'recovery' from that mechanic?

You might hate that it’s ranged now, but you should look at how these changes affect RDM in a gameplay sense, not just how it looks. You are literally being a melee outside of 2 min burst windows for that mobility sword combo, and you still have to use your gap closer, the identity and fun aren't dead. RED MAGE IS STILL FUN :0

These changes were good, just please reinforce our class identity in 8.0! If you want red mage to be a melee or worthy of taking a melee spot during mechanics then that is fine. Just know it has never been a melee so what you believe to have lost or want changed is something that has never existed on this job class to begin with.

I imagine that the 'fun' will be the same as it previously was, and that we'll just eventually get used to the change. But the identity being alive/dead is definitely up for debate, as I'd argue that removing the Melee requirement of a Melee combo, is as weird and damaging to the identity of RDM, as making all of the Ninjutsus on NIN be Melee range would be to a NIN's identity. 'It's a rapier, why can I hit from all the way over here with it' and 'It's a lightning bolt, why do I have to be inside the boss's backside to call a lightning bolt down on them', two sides of the same coin IMO

If you're referring to me on that last part (RDM was never a melee), I'm fully aware, I was just musing in a previous post that it could be an interesting way to resolve RDM's issue of 'perpetually 6+% behind BLM because who knows why'. If it were up to me from the very start, RDM would have been a Tank.

[Voidmage]

Only ragging on a job's changes without appreciating the good is how you get them to pull the plug entirely. We know what that looks like because it has happened to other jobs. [B][U]We need to rinse off some of this negativity and show that we aren't just crybabies.

People being "crybabies" was the entire reason why we got Paradox in ice phase back. Would you say that was unneeded?
If we stopped complaining about job homogenisation then we will end with the absolute bottom of job design.

And the "bit of a hit to class identity" wouldn't be so bad if we didn't have additional hits on the road till now with other jobs.
Like I said before where do you draw the line?

The reason why you see so much pushback nowadays even for small simplifications or things that are actually qol is because there simply is no trust left in the devs given their track record of designing around only the high end raids nowadays.
If we see those simplifications here now, why should I trust in 8.0 being different anymore?

I don't want my game be watered down to one button wonders and simple AOE dodging just for the sake of fight design.
You are basically saying that each of us who enjoyed planning around those things like melee range or Enochian timers should shut up go away.

People can like those changes and the others but I am selfish in that I want to have fun with the jobs like I actually had before, only to see what made those jobs fun for me get more and more eroded away for the sake of others.

[Milkbeard]

People being "crybabies" was the entire reason why we got Paradox in ice phase back. Would you say that was unneeded?
If we stopped complaining about job homogenisation then we will end with the absolute bottom of job design.
And the "bit of a hit to class identity" wouldn't be so bad if we didn't have additional hits on the road till now with other jobs.
Like I said before where do you draw the line?
The reason why you see so much pushback nowadays even for small simplifications or things that are actually qol is because there simply is no trust left in the devs given their track record of designing around only the high end raids nowadays.
If we see those simplifications here now, why should I trust in 8.0 being different anymore?
I don't want my game be watered down to one button wonders and simple AOE dodging just for the sake of fight design.
You are basically saying that each of us who enjoyed planning around those things like melee range or Enochian timers should shut up go away.
People can like those changes and the others but I am selfish in that I want to have fun with the jobs like I actually had before, only to see what made those jobs fun for me get more and more eroded away for the sake of others.

No just keep it functional and try to know what you're talking about. I see a lot of dog piling, but no examples or data or anything to back it up other than being mad about the range change on 3 gcds changing while under a buff.

They designed bosses in the past where RDM needed to be in Melee range for its combo, but it somehow wasn't a problem for them back then. I don't remember any of these kind of complaints back in, say, Stormblood when RDM was introduced. If there were such complaints, surely this change would have happened sooner?
It's the encounter design that changed, not the Melee combo. So maybe, instead of saying 'wow it sucks to do the 2min burst when I have to go to Narnia to solve this mechanic', SE should consider not having the 2min burst be during a mechanic that sends the Ranged to Narnia? Have them go to Narnia for a mechanic at 1:30, then come in again for the 2min burst as the 'recovery' from that mechanic?
I imagine that the 'fun' will be the same as it previously was, and that we'll just eventually get used to the change. But the identity being alive/dead is definitely up for debate, as I'd argue that removing the Melee requirement of a Melee combo, is as weird and damaging to the identity of RDM, as making all of the Ninjutsus on NIN be Melee range would be to a NIN's identity. 'It's a rapier, why can I hit from all the way over here with it' and 'It's a lightning bolt, why do I have to be inside the boss's backside to call a lightning bolt down on them', two sides of the same coin IMO
If you're referring to me on that last part (RDM was never a melee), I'm fully aware, I was just musing in a previous post that it could be an interesting way to resolve RDM's issue of 'perpetually 6+% behind BLM because who knows why'. If it were up to me from the very start, RDM would have been a Tank.

I need to know what fights you think RDM was designed as having a melee space for so that we can keep this conversation functional. I see your points, I just can't get behind the idea that RDM has ever played like a melee without any truth or evidence. The rapier wasn't removed it was enhanced under a buff.

[ForsakenRoe]

mad about the range change on 3 gcds changing while under a buff.

Again, it's not 3 GCDs. It's 'every Enchanted GCD in the 30s duration of Manafication'. Up to 3 'Melee' combos, if you pooled resources. Unless, by '3 GCDs' you mean 'these 3 buttons on the hotbar, which happen to be GCD actions'

I need to know what fights you think RDM was designed as having a melee space for so that we can keep this conversation functional. I see your points, I just can't get behind the idea that RDM has ever played like a melee without any truth or evidence. The rapier wasn't removed it was enhanced under a buff.

If the request is 'what older fights had space designed in, such that a RDM and 2 Melees AND both Tanks can all be in melee range of the Boss during the burst window', A: A lot of older fights did not rely so much on 'the party has 4 in and 4 out' so much as things like Protean positions where everybody is equidistant from the boss, or the angle of each player around the boss is more important than the distance from the boss, etc. and B: The timing of players' bursts were staggered in older days, so not everybody was bursting at the same time. Perhaps the issue then, is that since those days, everybody needing to burst at 2min, and the massive potencies on those burst actions/the multiplicative nature of those raidbuffs placing so much more burden on 'burst at the right time or your DPS tanks', means that RDM being 'unable to get into Melee range' is far more punishing now compared to previously?

If the request is 'what implied RDM ever had anything Melee in its design', it was capable of holding its own with Melee combat in previous games. It having a Melee combo is a nod to that versatility.

I am also not sure what you mean by 'I just can't get behind the idea that RDM has ever played like a melee without any truth or evidence', there's no truth or evidence of that statement (in regards to specifically FFXIV's RDM) because it's never played 'like a Melee'. It's played 'like a Ranged/Melee hybrid, using Ranged for its regular gameplay, and a fastpaced Melee combo to deal burst damage'. Where has the idea that RDM has ever 'played like a Melee' come from?



I guess this slide needs to be updated to say 'Ranged attacks with magic (and sometimes Rapier)', and 'Melee attacks with Rapier (but can sometimes strike with Rapier from 25y away)'. 'A Hybrid Ranged/Melee style, achieved using high-speed positioning' only holds true if you actually need to Melee, and with this change, you Melee less. It is, objectively, less 'hybrid' than it was before. I fully expect that there will be calls to make the remaining 'actually Melee' Melee combo also be executable from range come 8.0

[Solilunaris]

ForsakenRoe just explained the issue perfectly digging up the old RDM presentation: even a small change like this is a big issue. RDM is not the class we loved to play and we were promised. We can still play pretend and stay in melee range but how long will it last till fight mechs and other players force you to be optimal and be at range? RDM SHOULD BE A DUELIST MAGE NOT SOME FOOL SWINGING THE SWORD AT NOTHING

Hells just buff Reprise, it’s useless as Sleep right now and it’s “the sword-ranged spell for when you are capped and out of range”. We had the tools just buff the damage or change some effect with manafic!
Even better just change the new update and give us more potency if we burst in melee range and normal potency if we burst from afar. It would have made the job MORE FUN!

Shame the devs won’t even hear us but if there’s a small chance to rollback this change or get a better one I will take it.

[Milkbeard]

Again, it's not 3 GCDs. It's 'every Enchanted GCD in the 30s duration of Manafication'. Up to 3 'Melee' combos, if you pooled resources. Unless, by '3 GCDs' you mean 'these 3 buttons on the hotbar, which happen to be GCD actions'



If the request is 'what older fights had space designed in, such that a RDM and 2 Melees AND both Tanks can all be in melee range of the Boss during the burst window', A: A lot of older fights did not rely so much on 'the party has 4 in and 4 out' so much as things like Protean positions where everybody is equidistant from the boss, or the angle of each player around the boss is more important than the distance from the boss, etc. and B: The timing of players' bursts were staggered in older days, so not everybody was bursting at the same time.

I guess this slide needs to be updated to say 'Ranged attacks with magic (and sometimes Rapier)', and 'Melee attacks with Rapier (but can sometimes strike with Rapier from 25y away)'. 'A Hybrid Ranged/Melee style, achieved using high-speed positioning' only holds true if you actually need to Melee, and with this change, you Melee less. It is, objectively, less 'hybrid' than it was before. I fully expect that there will be calls to make the remaining 'actually Melee' Melee combo also be executable from range come 8.0

Sorry, I should have clarified: it isn't just the GCDs, it's the moves. However, if you want to go down the route of the "triple sword" combo, I’d argue you should still be in melee range to fit Corps-a-corps and Displacement into your pot window. But at that point, aren't we just arguing that Red Mage didn't actually change for high-level players?

The reason I asked for a specific fight is that, frankly, there aren't any designed for triple melee in any expansion. I’m genuinely open to an example if you find one, but we shouldn't twist things by saying, "Well, Red Mage used to be a welcome fifth to the melee crowd." When the melee players have to pick a cardinal position, it’s theirs, not a Red Mage’s, because RDM is ranged. Lets' not twist things in this identity post to try and spin it like we've lost something until evidence is provided. It wasn't gutted and people should refrain from dog piling on a job when they have been too busy maining the forums to try it out.

I see what you’re saying in your shift mainly toward talking about identity. Not gonna lie, identity is subjective and hard to discuss functionally, but I appreciate that you aren't equating a range change on the sword combo to the new-gen take of "now it plays like BLM." If you believe Red Mage should "hold its own in melee combat," you’re asking for something entirely new that has never existed in this game. I disagree with this forum 7.4 changes the range of 3 "weaponskills" during burst. Not the identity.

[Supersnow845]

Reductio ad absurdum is used when you know that you have no valid argument to make or can't refute the point you don't like. We're talking one melee combo that can only be used at range once every few minutes, not every melee skill ever.

Though, ironically, the answer to your question is still "correct, it would not affect my individual job fantasy" as long as the game didn't either prevent said skills from being used in melee range or make it practically impossible to do so.

For example, there are already people who don't like what they flying has "done" to the game...so they just don't fly. And they're welcome to do that. It only becomes an issue when certain parts of the land become designed to require flying that the concept fails.

Of your 4 melee combos per 2 minutes it’s now 3 that are at range, only one is still in melee range.

And if melee having no melee range restriction wouldn’t affect job identity for you then I don’t even know what you consider job identity

Sorry, I should have clarified: it isn't just the GCDs, it's the moves. However, if you want to go down the route of the "triple sword" combo, I’d argue you should still be in melee range to fit Corps-a-corps and Displacement into your pot window. But at that point, aren't we just arguing that Red Mage didn't actually change for high-level players?

The reason I asked for a specific fight is that, frankly, there aren't any designed for triple melee in any expansion. I’m genuinely open to an example if you find one, but we shouldn't twist things by saying, "Well, Red Mage used to be a welcome fifth to the melee crowd." When the melee players have to pick a cardinal position, it’s theirs, not a Red Mage’s, because RDM is ranged. Lets' not twist things in this identity post to try and spin it like we've lost something until evidence is provided. It wasn't gutted and people should refrain from dog piling on a job when they have been too busy maining the forums to try it out.

I see what you’re saying in your shift mainly toward talking about identity. Not gonna lie, identity is subjective and hard to discuss functionally, but I appreciate that you aren't equating a range change on the sword combo to the new-gen take of "now it plays like BLM." If you believe Red Mage should "hold its own in melee combat," you’re asking for something entirely new that has never existed in this game. I disagree with this forum 7.4 changes the range of 3 "weaponskills" during burst. Not the identity.

Nobody is asking it to “hold its own in melee” people are saying that square needs to stop designing mechanics then sacrificing identity to make the mechanics fit, this whole change was precipitated on the assumption of the genetic post ShB “a mechanic will be solved with 4 in 4 out”, instead of sacrificing RDM’s identity, just don’t make mechanics require that

[Milkbeard]

Of your 4 melee combos per 2 minutes it’s now 3 that are at range, only one is still in melee range.

And if melee having no melee range restriction wouldn’t affect job identity for you then I don’t even know what you consider job identity



Nobody is asking it to “hold its own in melee” people are saying that square needs to stop designing mechanics then sacrificing identity to make the mechanics fit, this whole change was precipitated on the assumption of the genetic post ShB “a mechanic will be solved with 4 in 4 out”, instead of sacrificing RDM’s identity, just don’t make mechanics require that

You are replying, to my reply, to someone else sir. Read both posts if you're gonna do that because I'm not gonna spend time clarifying it for you lol. Also most of the time its not 3 whole combos covered by manaification what fights are you doing? That is for pot window buddy. Don't spin a narrative that isn't true about the rotation to fit your arguement.

[Supersnow845]

You are replying, to my reply, to someone else sir. Read both posts if you're gonna do that because I'm not gonna spend time clarifying it for you lol. Also most of the time its not 3 whole combos covered by manaification what fights are you doing? That is for pot window buddy. Don't spin a narrative that isn't true about the rotation to fit your arguement.

I’m replying to the fact that you were asking forsaken if they “believe RDM should hold its own in melee” which is a stance neither forsaken or anyone else has taken, people are saying “stop shaving job mechanics down because your combat design team is so uncreative it forces these problems”

1 melee combo or 3 you only get 4 per 2 minutes, absolute best case scenario you have become 25% less melee, worst 75% likely to fall somewhere on the middle at 50%, that’s a massive reduction In the hybrid design of the job to deal with a problem created by the combat design

A fight shouldn’t have to be “designed” to allow RDM into melee range, fights shouldn’t be so rigid on 4 in 4 out That a good RDM can’t get in and out when they are needed now there is little reason to even try

[Kishin12345]

I've always considered dualcast as the defining feature for rdm because it is a feature that rdm has in all other ff titles. For the 60sec melee you still got to be in melee range, although maybe they just go all the way with 8.0 and make all melees ranged and adjust the animation.
Also a funny thing is if yoshi talks about blm identity, he never mentions anything like timer management. He always just describes blm as destruction incarnate, so basically just a selfish high damage caster using destructive fire spells. I think their idea of identity is just completely different to what we think here.
Btw in jp the rdm changes are mostly welcome as far as i could see. One or two disappointed but understanding comments.