Thread: RDM 7.4 changes and job identity

ForsakenRoe just explained the issue perfectly digging up the old RDM presentation: even a small change like this is a big issue. RDM is not the class we loved to play and we were promised. We can still play pretend and stay in melee range but how long will it last till fight mechs and other players force you to be optimal and be at range? RDM SHOULD BE A DUELIST MAGE NOT SOME FOOL SWINGING THE SWORD AT NOTHING

Hells just buff Reprise, it’s useless as Sleep right now and it’s “the sword-ranged spell for when you are capped and out of range”. We had the tools just buff the damage or change some effect with manafic!
Even better just change the new update and give us more potency if we burst in melee range and normal potency if we burst from afar. It would have made the job MORE FUN!

Shame the devs won’t even hear us but if there’s a small chance to rollback this change or get a better one I will take it.

Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Again, it's not 3 GCDs. It's 'every Enchanted GCD in the 30s duration of Manafication'. Up to 3 'Melee' combos, if you pooled resources. Unless, by '3 GCDs' you mean 'these 3 buttons on the hotbar, which happen to be GCD actions'



If the request is 'what older fights had space designed in, such that a RDM and 2 Melees AND both Tanks can all be in melee range of the Boss during the burst window', A: A lot of older fights did not rely so much on 'the party has 4 in and 4 out' so much as things like Protean positions where everybody is equidistant from the boss, or the angle of each player around the boss is more important than the distance from the boss, etc. and B: The timing of players' bursts were staggered in older days, so not everybody was bursting at the same time.

I guess this slide needs to be updated to say 'Ranged attacks with magic (and sometimes Rapier)', and 'Melee attacks with Rapier (but can sometimes strike with Rapier from 25y away)'. 'A Hybrid Ranged/Melee style, achieved using high-speed positioning' only holds true if you actually need to Melee, and with this change, you Melee less. It is, objectively, less 'hybrid' than it was before. I fully expect that there will be calls to make the remaining 'actually Melee' Melee combo also be executable from range come 8.0

Sorry, I should have clarified: it isn't just the GCDs, it's the moves. However, if you want to go down the route of the "triple sword" combo, I’d argue you should still be in melee range to fit Corps-a-corps and Displacement into your pot window. But at that point, aren't we just arguing that Red Mage didn't actually change for high-level players?

The reason I asked for a specific fight is that, frankly, there aren't any designed for triple melee in any expansion. I’m genuinely open to an example if you find one, but we shouldn't twist things by saying, "Well, Red Mage used to be a welcome fifth to the melee crowd." When the melee players have to pick a cardinal position, it’s theirs, not a Red Mage’s, because RDM is ranged. Lets' not twist things in this identity post to try and spin it like we've lost something until evidence is provided. It wasn't gutted and people should refrain from dog piling on a job when they have been too busy maining the forums to try it out.

I see what you’re saying in your shift mainly toward talking about identity. Not gonna lie, identity is subjective and hard to discuss functionally, but I appreciate that you aren't equating a range change on the sword combo to the new-gen take of "now it plays like BLM." If you believe Red Mage should "hold its own in melee combat," you’re asking for something entirely new that has never existed in this game. I disagree with this forum 7.4 changes the range of 3 "weaponskills" during burst. Not the identity.

I've always considered dualcast as the defining feature for rdm because it is a feature that rdm has in all other ff titles. For the 60sec melee you still got to be in melee range, although maybe they just go all the way with 8.0 and make all melees ranged and adjust the animation.
Also a funny thing is if yoshi talks about blm identity, he never mentions anything like timer management. He always just describes blm as destruction incarnate, so basically just a selfish high damage caster using destructive fire spells. I think their idea of identity is just completely different to what we think here.
Btw in jp the rdm changes are mostly welcome as far as i could see. One or two disappointed but understanding comments.

Originally Posted by Valence

Pvp is unironically the containment/retirement zone for bittervets and people that like meaningful class mechanics.

"DRK can't have HP spending in PvE; its a tank; it'll never work"

PVP where DRK has to tank several thousands more damage than in PVE, use HP and have lifesteal/heals and it working: yeah, right.

Who knows, maybe in 8.X they magically surprise us and actually let the PvP job design team work on PvE Job design.

Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

"DRK can't have HP spending in PvE; its a tank; it'll never work"

PVP where DRK has to tank several thousands more damage than in PVE, use HP and have lifesteal/heals and it working: yeah, right.

Who knows, maybe in 8.X they magically surprise us and actually let the PvP job design team work on PvE Job design.

They had DRK actions costing MP instead of HP in PVE, because they knew players would be silly and spend all their HP for more damage, get themselves killed to a raidwide by not having enough HP left, and then blame the Healer. Can you imagine a parsebrained DRK demanding the Healer pocket-heal them so they can get HP back to spam more Edges?

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

At this point I’m convinced JP just wants to log on, see a giant “you won” banner then log off again

Now I'm curious if the mobile version has auto-pathing and auto-battling like every other mobile MMO on the market.

While one might assume a mobile version more catered to Japanese preferences would mean the PC version can do its own thing, Yoshi-P has already admitted they're not against adding elements from the mobile version into the PC version if they prove "popular" enough. (And I don't think he was just talking about cash shop cosmetics.)
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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Can they do that with PVP so I don't have to do daily Frontlines to get to Rank 25

The more likely possibility is that they just add an NPC/bot option for most or all of the PVP modes with reduced rewards/achievements disabled/no ranked.

I don't know how many other MMOs do that, but there's plenty of MOBAs and class shooters that let you go up against bots of varying difficulty levels with the only other humans being your teammates (and even then some of them will give you bot allies to fill remaining spots/roles). Even a bot mode Frontlines wouldn't be hard to fill if you only need 24 people to show up to make it pop, doubly so if the option proves more desireable for those "just here for the XP and tomes" while those actually wanting to PVP pile into Frontlines proper.