Why is Warrior a healer in all but role?

[yesnt]

Agreed, tanks are still needed. I was *trying* to level my SCH (I’m sorry everybody) and I died at 80% of the boss fight. I watched the tank individually and group heal everybody. It was both awe inspiring and depressing at the same time.

I have witnessed a warrior intentionally nuke a party to solo the boss, really fun. <3 /s

[Rithy255]

Snip.

Not really because changing damage profiles doesn't just automatically kill DPS or healers the fact I have to say this is ludicrous, but because I'm not 100% on board with deleting all self heals I suppose any argument I make here will be seen as a issue with healers, because they cannot genuinely comprehend that self healing isn't really the issue in of its own. More damage would mean more consistent damage output and more single target damage on the tank from the boss and pulls, which counters your idea that it would mean healers/dps would just automatically die, which makes no sense in the first place.

Tanks should be able to heal themselves, again the fact you think any amount of self healing is a issue is just such a weird take Self healing has existed since a realm reborn and worked out there, so it's not like theirs some imaginary impossible compatibility with self healing and healers both having fun. Yes Warrior, Gunbreaker and Paladin are way overtuned in self healing, but acting like the only solution is to delete all of it now! other then clemency a skill you'll never use just shows none of you actually care about people who do enjoy self sustain on tanks, so why should they care about you enjoying healer?? I want a game where both healers and tanks are working together, self healing even target healing doesn't prevent that from happening despite how much bloodwhetting/flash is used as a counterpoint it's just a example of a very poorly implemented version of sustain that people will use as a quick reason why sustain will never work

In a world where Paladin only had holy sheltron as sustain, they'd heal 1000 potency twice per minute, that would be 2/5ths of your HP, you're telling me that they cannot design content around tanks healing less then half their health per minute? like what are yall even talking about anymore, It's crazy this is seen as a problem to anyone frankly.

Funny thing is I agree with your last statement because your true here they genuinely don't care about anything that is non dps, but it's frustrating to see this spin around into "it's all the tanks fault for being invincible!" like no I dont want super op tanks but acting like sustain or target healing can't have a place on a job like paladin (outside of clemency a skill you will never use 99% of the time) isn't at all logical.

Though I'd be interested if the devs tried to move more away from the strict trinity system as I think it's become a problem with how this game has evolved Jobs are too restricted in one direction if we go back to tanks can only do "x, y and z" ect. It would also encourage them to give healer jobs such as white mage and scholar more fun dps rotations while also not making them healer exclusive, though this is all cope from me.

[ForteNightshade]

Agreed, tanks are still needed. I was *trying* to level my SCH (I’m sorry everybody) and I died at 80% of the boss fight. I watched the tank individually and group heal everybody. It was both awe inspiring and depressing at the same time.

Oh, it's ridiculous how long Warrior and Paladin can survive. Both have solo'd some normal mode raids, specifically E1 because unless a mechanic outright kills them or there isn't enough back to back mechanics to exhaust their CDs, they're basically immortal. I get SE wanting to make it so a given dungeon wasn't entirely dependent on a healer, but they went way too far.

I have witnessed a warrior intentionally nuke a party to solo the boss, really fun. <3 /s

I sincerely hope you reported them. It's one thing to solo a boss after people die but intentionally killing people is a real jerk move that GMs will ban for pretty quickly.

[RedLolly]

I have witnessed a warrior intentionally nuke a party to solo the boss, really fun. <3 /s

I hope you reported that player. That's griefing through and through.

I'm sorry you had to deal with that.

Snippy

The only time I ever see a tank use Clemency is G'raha. He is programmed to prioritize healing you with it if you're HP gets low even as a tank.

But, tossing this apparently extreme idea out there; Do tanks really even NEED self-sustain? DPS do fine with almost zero and healers are basically just outlasting mobs with their crappy DPS by relying on self-sustain. Since tanks can and should be mitigating damage as well as innately having vastly superior defense and HP, they could get away with only needing a little self-heal too and relying on the team healers in group content.

[Rithy255]

Snip.

Sustain is apart of tanks, it's another way to "tank" taking that away from tanks is taking away a core fundamental way to tank, So yes I think if you want a varity of different defensive kits tanks should have some sustain. The three core ways to tank damage is Mitigation, Shielding and Self sustain those cores have always been there, Self sustain to a lesser extent in the past and endwalker took that way too far but not only that it super buffed a lot of mitigations when DT doubled down on that.

I think the current problem isn't sustain, It's Sustain + Mitigation, The solution isn't to just take out one of those things because "well we tried" that's literally the SE way of doing things if it don't work lets just remove it rather then trying to make things work, such as beloved aggro management.

Should insane amounts of sustain exist? No Warrior is ridiculous it's balance is out so bad in casual content, but because Warrior and even paladin have really good sustain that should be nerfed, does not mean ALL sustain must go unless useless like clemency (which I gather is a popular argument for healers) We should rein tanks in and nerf sustain AND mitigation to be more inline and balanced, Like I said if a Tank restores around 2/5ths (This is in line with keeping only holy sheltron as plds main sustain while removing magic attack sustain) if you're still having immortal tanks when they have a semi decent amount of sustain then that's not a problem with sustain that's a problem with damage output going onto the tank and how defensive the tanks are If your entire Healer role is able to be done by restoring a tank slightly once a minute then we have a VERY serious problem with outputs not JUST sustain. We should be asking for them to fix damage and enemy output aswell as reducing tank kits rather then accepting very little damage output, because healers wouldn't be happy with doing one OGCD heal per minute, No we need to fix the output we need to fix healer/tank design rather then just taking things away.

I don't know call me crazy but I don't think it's insane to say some level of tank sustain or even target healing can exist for free, while healers can also have the need to actively heal, It's only seen as a problem because of some weird sense of pride "I'm a healer THAT'S MY thing, no one can do even a 10% of MY job". Frankly it's tiring to hear healers complain that they don't have a job identity and are trying to actively strip away paladins identity that of being the Holy magic healing Knight. All I'm saying is lets not just blindly say all sustain is bad but you see how much backlash even a simple statement like that makes.

Though if it makes you happy SE will more likely want to remove sustain then rework tanks and healers into being more balanced and fun for everyone, because that's the easier option sure it will make some people happy that now instead of pressing no healing skills you get to press like 1 per pull and 1 per boss encounter. Good job healers fixed now! enjoy doing the exact same thing you were already doing and making tanks worse to play.

[Supersnow845]

The thing is while I don’t even oppose tank sustain in a semi balanced form there is no functional difference between “nerf sustain” and “buff damage”. It’s the 7.1 PCT problem where you just power creep all power content then hope current content is better balanced for when you actually luck into current content. If the concern is flavour there is much bigger concerns than how much of PLD’s sustain is “thematic white magic”

Building balance atop current sustain design (not saying you said that exactly just that that is a common suggestion) is just really easy way to create a wonky tower of balance that completely destroys the integrity of anything older than said decision

[Rithy255]

The thing is while I don’t even oppose tank sustain in a semi balanced form there is no functional difference between “nerf sustain” and “buff damage”. It’s the 7.1 PCT problem where you just power creep all power content then hope current content is better balanced for when you actually luck into current content. If the concern is flavour there is much bigger concerns than how much of PLD’s sustain is “thematic white magic”

Building balance atop current sustain design (not saying you said that exactly just that that is a common suggestion) is just really easy way to create a wonky tower of balance that completely destroys the integrity of anything older than said decision

Problem is lets say all Tanks were now effectively like Dark knight (without a heal on your 40% and heal from drain/carve) How much are you expecting that to improve healer gameplay alone? how much are you actively more going to heal in dungeons and even savage content with that change?

The content's output Needs to change in order for healer to be more actively healing, other changes alongside that such as reducing tank sustain (especially warrior who infinitely scales in AOE) and Mitigation need to be ontop of that, I rather they actively effect all playing factors into why tanks feel immortal rather then just heavily addressing one problem, because it makes a much more fun experience for tanks and healers, rather then just kind of punishing tanks and only very slightly improving healer gameplay.

My question more is if a tank is recovering around 2/5ths of it's hp per minute in what world would that replace healer's other then one that's fundamentally flawed in it's damage output design, Even if we didn't have that form of sustain, healers job would be what? Healing a very small amount of the tanks hp while being a dps 95% of the time? While fixing damage output also only effects new content, old content over the years has become a meme and barely functions so unless they plan on addressing that they should make core encounter changes alongside tank power creep being heavily nerfed down to something way more feasible and sane.

I get frustrated with this because I do want healers to actually heal I want people to enjoy playing the role they singed up for, we should NOT be reinforcing warriors design and double down on sustain we shouldn't be balancing around current tank sustain or creep obviously but theirs a extent where sustain should play a part in tank design, even some form of support which can include miniscule amounts of target healing on allies that Should not replace the healer and if it does then it's a issue with the output.

[Supersnow845]

I’m not saying reducing tank healing to 40% of its current levels will alone fix healers

I’m saying if you buff outgoing damage buff 60% or nerf tank sustain to 40% it’s already functionally achieved the same thing

Healers need holistic changes but I don’t know how many more times I can tell you that. It doesn’t change the fact that to rebalance lack of outgoing damage the first and easiest thing to do is reduce sustain, because building future content on the current sustain just invalidates existing content

This doesn’t mean doing just that will fix healers

[Rithy255]

I’m not saying reducing tank healing to 40% of its current levels will alone fix healers

I’m saying if you buff outgoing damage buff 60% or nerf tank sustain to 40% it’s already functionally achieved the same thing

Healers need holistic changes but I don’t know how many more times I can tell you that. It doesn’t change the fact that to rebalance lack of outgoing damage the first and easiest thing to do is reduce sustain, because building future content on the current sustain just invalidates existing content

This doesn’t mean doing just that will fix healers

I know you're not saying reducing tank sustain (pretty much to 0 going off by whats been said here) would not be your only change, but it's a very lazy lame change that barely makes a dent into the healer issue, while again taking away one of the core 3 ways to "tank" damage.

I also think it would be more reducing tank healing by 60-70% aka things such as taking PLD's massive burst healing from holy blade combo, so on average per minute it would sustain 2000 potency from uses of sheltron, which 2000 potency (which mind you is a lot lower then healers 2000 potency because of passives) is around 40-50% of the tanks hp, which would make it so you could actually balance fights feasible in ways where tanks take more then 50% of their total hp in a minute (which should be a very standard thing that tanks Do take quite a lot of damage throughout a fight).

Yes the easiest thing to do is to reduce or pretty much remove sustain, but again do you think SE would actually bother to do anything more in depth after that? if it's seen as "fixed" now, I honestly think this idea that they should only do the bare minimum so that no one is happy but technically healers are useful now is the worst outcome for both tanks and healers who want more then just half baked changes I don't think always just looking for the most easiest solution that "technically" solves the issue of healers feeling useful is the right direction. It's also not like I'm against reducing sustain heavily it's very much over tuned and deserved at this point, so a part of me can see your point that sustain is way too overvalued.

We also need to forget about "existing content" as it gets invalidated by new expansions all the time, I don't care how it feels to play healer in ARR or Hw because that content has been neglected for years with new skill update after update, we should be focusing on future content and designs and not let us be held back, This argument would make more sense if old content served any sort of purpose and was functional, but it isn't.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Yeah and reverting to shb paladin would ruin what I enjoy about the job.

You're basically saying who cares about your job identity as long as healers healers are happy by reverting paladin, which again wouldn't really do much to fix healers so I really don't understand why you'd want that other then to make tank players slightly more miserable.

The PLD identity I have is a Knight that uses white magic both healing and offensive so shadowbringers isn't really a good example of that as I'll never be using clemency anyway (even less so now we have phoenix downs)[...]

Sometimes I wonder if the reason people don't 'see' PLD's sustenance as bad as WAR was simply because they're accustomed to see 'lololol 4 benediction back to back', which ofc will make everything else pales in comparison. Anyhow...

ShB was the time I enjoyed PLD the most despite its flaw being the 'worst' tank in term of active sustenance discounting Clemency, because like you said, they should be minimized in practice like any other toolkits with healing nature (because why do you want to overheal?). I like having to make a conscious, active decisions when the party actually needs -my- Clemency so I can buy time for the healer to raise in conjunction to Cover/HG/whatever I have at the moment by forgo'ing my full combo and switch to 1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2 for the much needed mana regeneration. Today? Probably in my 71 minutes run of Thaleia from the other day, lol.

The addition of HoT into their Holy Shelltron, Intervention, AND in-built juices to their Holy Spirit/Circle/Spellbade at 6.0. pretty much turned me off from picking PLD to tank & makes me internally grumble as a healer if I got paired with one anywhere beyond lv82-86+, because how absurd its sustenance. For reference purpose, I like to use Cure II/Tetra to compare potencies because it takes 1 cast of Holy Shelltron/Intervention or 2.5 casts of Holy Spirit/Circle/Spellblade to match the healing amount.

You can't convince me "Oh it's just tiny amount, I swear!!" when WHMs already don't have or need to cast as much Cure II/Tetra/any of their adjacent buttons -before- 6.0 in the similar scenarios. So why then, you insist on wanting to keep these additional sustenance that you never needed? I personally could probably tolerate one of them (only HS HoT, -only- Intervention HoT, or only built-in juice to Holy Spirit/Circle), but definitely NOT all of them. Understanding these cases, I'm gonna be blunt - that's more than 'just helping healer'. That's also doing their already diminishing job desk. Mind you, I'm placing the blame fully on the dev because it is them who pulled down the lever and let out all the cats off the bag. Whoever green-lighted this decision probably have enough foresight to spot bad healers in one of their runs (who doesn't?), but not enough to realize what it means to the green coded role.

Also not really directed at you specifically but more to general you since I've seen this used so many times in the board: the line "Do you think SE would bother to do XXX" is overused at this point. If we take that to heart then honestly we might as well cease to discuss 50 - 70% of topics in the board because clearly SE either doesn't bother or sees them as low prio - and because this is NA forum... welp... lmao.