Why is Warrior a healer in all but role?

[Rithy255]

Again I said I’m fine with clemency, not that I think clemency should be it, nor did I say that I want healing to be free on healers; I am a proud advocate of succor should be SCH’s most pressed button in an average encounter

This is the problem. You say tank mains think these arguments are ridiculous but it’s easy to think an argument is ridiculous when you make it up in your head. I want holistic changes to both roles. I just don’t think a skill like SIO in its current form has a place in a role outside of healer. It’s why most of my suggestions for tank revolve around bringing agro back as a concept; because I want more interesting interactions when I’m tanking that aren’t just co-opting healer design to fill the void of role design left by the removal of agro

And that’s why in SB I was an advocate of agro being a TANK mechanic, not a NIN mechanic because at its core a trinity should have a defined niche and be the best in functional role at that niche, NIN being the master agro manager went against that as does modern tank healing

A skill like shake it off being on a non-healer isn't a issue nor is any similar skills like curing waltz, veil ect. Especially when it fits the Job such as paladin to heal allies.

The problem is partly you want a very strict trinity system where healers have one main function, tanks have one main function ect. When I do not want that I think that sort of system leads to very boring and static job design, where you can't have any room where a tank helps with healing (such as a paladin)

I also don't think "aggro management" will ever come back and even if it does it's personally not what I like about tanks, I genuinely enjoy being a melee support defensive hybrid I just think the way it's done currently is the best. I think aggromanagement is fine just rather not it be the identity of my job

Where in ff14 does it offer a fantasy of a magic healing knight if you removed most if not all that aspect from PLD... I'd be either stuck having to play a black line healer that's a mage or tank that isn't really that appealing to me so of course I'm going to want to keep some healing utility on a Paladin It's kind of a big reason why i like the job, I don't think we necessarily need to take away some healing aspects in general.

The sheer reason why i don't like shake it off or warrior healing allies is because it's thematically stupid for warrior. With the obvious exception that it's free ogcd healing is absurd alongside that

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

On PLD, you can easily revert back to ShB PLD to fulfill that ‘magic knight’ fantasy without encroaching Healer’s load lol.

No built-in heals on Holy Spirit/Circle/Spellblades. No Cure II-worth of regen slapped on Holy Shelltron & Intervention. Just your good old Clemency. Want more heals? Eat the further loss from doing 1-2-1-2-1-2 to speed up that MP recovery instead of finishing combo, if your party needs that.

[Alice_Rivers]

Where in ff14 does it offer a fantasy of a magic healing knight if you removed most if not all that aspect from PLD... I'd be either stuck having to play a black line healer that's a mage or tank that isn't really that appealing to me so of course I'm going to want to keep some healing utility on a Paladin It's kind of a big reason why i like the job, I don't think we necessarily need to take away some healing aspects in general.

This is the thing, I don't see him arguing that you can't have healing utility just that the tank/healer dynamic should be symbiotic with the healer healing.

[AmiableApkallu]

Where in ff14 does it offer a fantasy of a magic healing knight if you removed most if not all that aspect from PLD...

I don't think anyone in this thread is actually suggesting deleting Clemency from PLD -- the only real white magic heal in its kit, and the best designed heal of all the tanks' kits due to its opportunity cost (GCD and MP spent on healing vs. damage).

Which gets at the problem with a lot of tank abilities that restore HP, whether to themselves or to other party members: Aside from a cooldown, they're just free buttons.

You want a magic healing knight? Halleluja. Start by putting those heals on the GCD. (See also: Healers complaining that they spend so few GCDs on healing because their oGCDs are enough.)

[Rithy255]

On PLD, you can easily revert back to ShB PLD to fulfill that ‘magic knight’ fantasy without encroaching Healer’s load lol.

No built-in heals on Holy Spirit/Circle/Spellblades. No Cure II-worth of regen slapped on Holy Shelltron & Intervention. Just your good old Clemency. Want more heals? Eat the further loss from doing 1-2-1-2-1-2 to speed up that MP recovery instead of finishing combo, if your party needs that.

Yeah and reverting to shb paladin would ruin what I enjoy about the job.

You're basically saying who cares about your job identity as long as healers healers are happy by reverting paladin, which again wouldn't really do much to fix healers so I really don't understand why you'd want that other then to make tank players slightly more miserable.

The PLD identity I have is a Knight that uses white magic both healing and offensive so shadowbringers isn't really a good example of that as I'll never be using clemency anyway (even less so now we have phoenix downs)

I don't think anyone in this thread is actually suggesting deleting Clemency from PLD -- the only real white magic heal in its kit, and the best designed heal of all the tanks' kits due to its opportunity cost (GCD and MP spent on healing vs. damage).

Which gets at the problem with a lot of tank abilities that restore HP, whether to themselves or to other party members: Aside from a cooldown, they're just free buttons.

You want a magic healing knight? Halleluja. Start by putting those heals on the GCD. (See also: Healers complaining that they spend so few GCDs on healing because their oGCDs are enough.)

Wasn't talking about clemency being removed i was more talking about some of the other skills (I'm fine with some going possibly) but the idea that clemency is enough? it's a skill that gets used once in a blue moon in emergency you can say "best designed" but it's designed in a way that ill never even use in 99% of content. I like the skill don't get me wrong but ill never be using it in most practical situations.

Again you're saying it's fine that you lose stuff for the sake of healers having more identity, when I'm saying I think both paladin having some healing "free skills" and healer's can perfectly coexist in a balanced game.

The idea that anything heal related on a non healer has to be a gcd and has to cost something (other then a cooldown) is absurd.

[AmiableApkallu]

The idea that anything heal related on a non healer has to be a gcd and has to cost something (other then a cooldown) is absurd.

That's not what I said. If you want healing to be part of your identity, then it should be on the GCD. That applies to every job, including the healers.

Second Wind as an oGCD? Fine.

Curing Waltz as an oGCD? I say not so fine. Divine Veil? Same as Curing Waltz. And more than enough ink has already been spilled here concerning healers' kits.

[Valence]

Healing doesn't expire in that your right, but this would be solved by having more intense damage profiles on the tank during big AOE pulls which should be doing way more then they do, bosses should output more AOE damage and do more auto attack damage

No, because then you'll kill everything that's not a tank. DPS and healers have so much that they can take before keeling over at the smallest hit. Fact of the matter is that tanks have become incredibly powerful, like main character syndrome powerful, and tank mains are trying to cope out.

Tanks shouldn't be able to heal themselves well, and what they should be allowed are targeted, specific bursts of healing based on skill expression like they used to do. Either by running out of juice (DRK/Abyssal), or having longer cooldowns attached to damage dealt (WAR/Bloodbath or Nascent). Tanks should also lose the tank mastery trait, and this would probably solve a bit of the ludicrous "I'm tanking with 16 vuln stacks and this is fine kthx". In exchange, they should get more focus on actions like cover and mitigation/blocking providers that can specifically help allies or the team, while healers should lose a lot of fat in there as well to make room for it.

But it's obviously not the direction that the devs want, because the devs have stopped caring long ago about the RPG mechanics of their game and what they want out of jobs is not get in the way of their encounter mechanics, and every role should be able to perform what they're designed to do with minimal amount of effort, which means in the case of tanks, staying alive at all costs to keep aggro, because what matters isn't aggro, it's running everywhere like frogs in a blender. The only reason aggro and healing are still in the game is because else it would just drop the pretense that this is still a RPG with red, green and blue roles.

[Supersnow845]

Let me ask this question

If we extended holy’s stun to have an infinite effect on any enemy currently susceptible to holy then how would tanks suggest their role’s design be organised so that they can still enjoy the role without encroaching on the “fun” of infinite holy spam? (This isn’t a rhetorical question, if you can answer this then please go ahead)

This is the question that’s being asked of healers. You can’t redesign your entire role to work within the confines of “another role does your job for you” without ending up just playing a different role entirely under the same name

As per tank arguments I can’t even see a downside for this suggestion, I get more fun as a healer, it doesn’t affect savage because everything is immune to holy and it provides support to non confident tanks so I can’t be walled by a tank who isn’t confident. If you can see a downside to this please let me know

[ForteNightshade]

Run any level 100 dungeon with 4 semi-decent DPS and tell me again how crazy it is.


Level 100 Viper with "Bloodbath" during "Reawaken" is pretty much invulnerable during any size trash pull btw. and so is Reaper during enshroud, so idk what you mean by "crazy"

You would still either die or take longer than running with a tank. There is not a single speedrun group who drops tanks. So this assertion how much better it would be with four DPS is complete nonsense. At least if maximum efficiency is the end goal.

[Hyperia]

You would still either die or take longer than running with a tank. There is not a single speedrun group who drops tanks. So this assertion how much better it would be with four DPS is complete nonsense. At least if maximum efficiency is the end goal.

Agreed, tanks are still needed. I was *trying* to level my SCH (I’m sorry everybody) and I died at 80% of the boss fight. I watched the tank individually and group heal everybody. It was both awe inspiring and depressing at the same time.