Can we go back to using tomes to get relics?

[Shipp]

That's what I've always said, I find that if I have to grind something that's essentially recycled content that's already in the game, then i'd rather be able to pick what I like doing. And then we go back full circle and people come at me for saying that roulettes are different when they actually aren't (by the way, tome steps are literally identical to roulette steps, the only difference is that roulette steps actually restrict the amount of eligible duties, which is arguably worse).

And currently, while it's not the most engaging, tomes are what allow the greatest pick in selection. Like it or hate it, but it's true.

I am being genuine here with this question, but may I ask, what content aside from roulettes do you actually enjoy in this game? Every thread you post in you seem to be complaining about the game being too tedious, too hard, too grindy, etc. Then Aidenrouge (sp?) comes in and quotes you to agree with you and reinforce your points. Neither one of you seem to actually like any of the core aspects of MMOs and seem to want this to be a Sims game with magic in it.

I just don't understand the mindset of paying a subscription for a game you seem to not want to play except very few limited activities, while wanting the rewards of content that is meant to require a grind, without putting in the effort to actually play the way the devs intended.

[ServerCollaps]

just get the demiatmas inside oc, they have a 4 times higher droprate at ces

[Valence]

The problem with relics being tome weapons is twofold.

One is what we saw in EW. It was possible (and way to easy to do) to instantly get the relic weapons. No grinding involved, no time commitment, which was the entire purpose of relics before. They were supposed to be a time spender between patches.

I can see how people would say that, but you conveniently forget that the first step grind was the Hildi questline (potentially the whole ordeal all the way back to ARR for people that didn't do it before). Was it a good idea? Probably not, especially regarding the discrepancy between those who only had to do a dozen of EW Hildi quests per step, and those who had to do the whole thing. We can certainly agree it was not only lopsided like that, but also undercooked in terms of length and time spent. It was very obvious the devs fed it to us tacked behind Hildi because they had no idea what to do for the relics of the expansion.

You also have to keep in mind that the devs have completely shifted between "you grind for one relic as a time commitment between expansions" over to "you grind for all 20+ relics", which suddenly takes a fair amount of time even if we're talking only about 1500 tomes a step.

I just don't like how people are cherry picking what is effort, grindy, and what isn't when in reality it required a time investment. If you're only grinding for a single weapon, then that's on you, yes you'll have it at the snap of your fingers. Perhaps that's a problem for sure, but that's a completely different problem entirely. You can also disagree with the take that the grind is focused around all of the weapons at once instead of one or a couple, which is fair, but that's again, a whole different discussion than the content to grind.

The other problem is that it took content away from people like me who liked slowly working on their relic.
I understand that rng drops or long grinds are not for everyone but there are people who genuinely enjoy that type of content and it wasn't right to take it from us.

For a single relic or all of them? That was hefty amount of tomes. Perhaps still not enough, which can also be discussed, but it was a slow effort over time.

Personally I found Shb to almost be the perfect spot for relics with a big grind one time and then you were able to get the materials while doing Bozja on the side for example.
Either they go back to that or optimize what we have now in the form of tomestones as the second step TOGETHER with the option of the first step like atmas simply again.

ShB was kinda the transition between older relics that took a lot of time for a single one, to a model where the devs considered a lot of people wanted to grind for more of them because that's a game where one doesn't play a single job. Was it the good move? I don't know.
Bozja's relics were extremely tedious to me either way, because again, the first TWO steps, not ONE but TWO, were fucking fate atmas again. There sure were shorter for a single weapon than what they used to be, by a lot, but they weren't yet on the level of EW or DT either.
Anyway, Bozja's relic didn't allow me to pick what I wanted to do. Not only that, but the options they offered had shitty options and were imbalanced and they didn't even bother to adjust or hotfix it - maybe because that was by design idk.
Note that the very first step of Bozja was literally a tome step by the way.

But I stand by my point that the tomestone fans never should have been the ones to listen to in the first place while showing the middle finger to those who liked the grind.

I don't understand that logic. Tomes are grindy. The amount of tome required in the older relics were grindy (remember the total amount of fucking pneumite to get for a single anima at release??? It was what, 30 or 40k?).
Again, you're pointing finger in an accusatory manner at tomes, when in reality your problem is simply where you put the bar of what you consider grindy and what you don't. It's never been about tomes, they've been there since the beginning.

But roulette *is* different. Sure field operation also use fate grind, but you're ignoring things that make it unique compared to content outside of it. Namely the extra system they added to it; logos, lost action, phantom jobs; tougher/deadlier enemies. For bozja we even have CLL etc. You don't get those thing when doing tomestone or grinding normal overworld fates.

Saying it's "recycled content" is also pretty unfair for me. Do you expect them to create entirely new system/mechanic for every relic grind? By your logic, it's not worth doing msq, trials, raid, deep dungeon because they're all recycled content anyway.

The only content that offered serious fields ops grinding was Eureka. Bozja's was insanely suboptimal compared to options outside (because lol CBU3), and it only offered that option for what, a couple of steps out of all of them?

[Valence]

I am being genuine here with this question, but may I ask, what content aside from roulettes do you actually enjoy in this game? Every thread you post in you seem to be complaining about the game being too tedious, too hard, too grindy, etc. Then Aidenrouge (sp?) comes in and quotes you to agree with you and reinforce your points. Neither one of you seem to actually like any of the core aspects of MMOs and seem to want this to be a Sims game with magic in it.

I just don't understand the mindset of paying a subscription for a game you seem to not want to play except very few limited activities, while wanting the rewards of content that is meant to require a grind, without putting in the effort to actually play the way the devs intended.

Uh sir, I think you got me confused with someone else, I don't think I've ever complained about anything being too hard or grindy?

But to reply to the rest of your question, I used to enjoy the msq but like a lot of people it's not exactly been a thrill this expansion, and yes I used to enjoy roulettes and even raids (else I wouldn't have been raiding for years and years), but my appreciation for it has been long gone. I do not enjoy the pve in this game anymore and it's not exactly new. Aidorouge doesn't come to reinforce my points - I have nothing against Aidorouge and I respect their tastes but I'm still genuinely puzzled as to what they do like in the game, you should ask them the question, not to me. I have in fact disagreed a lot with them over what we want out of the game, notably on job design.

If after this you still think I hate on everything, then ask the question to all of the other oldies like Supersnow, Aravell, etc, because I've been literally in the same boat than them with the same complaints than them, if not 100% identical, then 99% either way. Close enough. We wouldn't be there complaining if we didn't care about the game and didn't lose what we used to really treasure or enjoy either. Can't speak for them but I assume it's similar. And then there is all the now silent ones like Mao, Taurus, etc, that have eventually given up and left. If that's what you're expecting of us to do, just say so.

I still try to at least give a fair try to every new piece of content. Most of it I have sharp criticism to give, but see, I actually kinda enjoyed PT. I have my gripes with a lot of points about it (see criticisms in the other section where actual deep dungeon solo players and aficionados five their feedback and compare it to older DDs like potd/hoh), but I still find it entertaining, and the new additions and improvements they brought to the format help quite a lot.

The content left that I do enjoy is pvp. I invest a lot of time into pvp. Also I have social circles and friends. I also like helping sprouts, sue me. Perhaps I'm a bitter emotional vampire that feeds on their positive emotions idk, but that would be a very jaded thing to say. I really like helping new players.

[Voidmage]

snip

Sorry but I just don't agree here.
Tomes aren't a grind. You get them by simply doing what you do anyway. There is a difference between going specifically after something like the atmas or the books in specific ways and a currency you get by doing your dailies.
If nothing else than the effort itself is different. Just compare how long it takes to get all atmas to how long it takes to get 1500 tomestones.
Getting all relics is frankly not a huge accomplishment with the new relics given they are a thing you just dump tomestones in because you have nothing else to use them on anyway.

Hildibrand also wasn't a hurdle in anyway. Either you did it anyway like me because you liked it in which case it was nothing or you never had an interest in it in the first place and skipped all cutscenes in which case it wasn't long either.
Putting it at the same level as some other relic steps is a bit dishonest imo.
One is a grind for things like memories, the other is watching cutscenes.
One took you a time to get all materials, the other you could simply keep 1500 tomes for the patch and be done in 5 minutes.

You can like the tomestone step, it's your opinion and I won't force mine on you but I completely disagree with seeing tomestones as a grind on the same level as atmas for example.
Also like I said (and Mr. Happy and others also).
I am fine with tomestones being the second step, whatever, I don't intend to take it away from those who like it that way. But at least let the option remain to repeat the first step for us.
Let me go into OC and continue farming atmas or farming light.


But no matter, you will never agree anyway, same as I will never agree to your stance, so I leave it here.
Just remember that there exist people who liked the long grind for all relics and we have frankly lost content.

[Valence]

"Doing what I do anyway"

Doing what exactly? What am I doing that rewards me with tomes "anyway"? Doing what dailies? Why would I do my dailies? I'm not a novice player, my jobs have been maxed out since the first months of the expansion as usual. I haven't needed tome gear since the first months of the tier. What am I doing that rewards me with tomes? Crystalline Conflict lol? I wish (but it pays jackshit).

What are you even doing tome dailies for if not relics??

You're comparing all atmas (I assume DT atmas) to 1500 tomes, but that's disingenuous. You should be comparing it to 31500 tomes, which is the complete step for tomes. You may not like that we don't grind for a single weapon and that's a matter of scope for the grind, not a matter of tomes, again. Pneumite step also required above 30k tomes, but just for one weapon. I don't have the numbers in mind for other tomes steps in the past. Bozja's tome step required 16k tomes for EVERY relic, which is twice less than current EW/DT tome steps, but I guess it was just an appetizer first step - still I do remember a lot of people being pissed about it.

I never put Hildibrand at the same level of other relic steps and you're putting words in my mouth. I seem to remember writing specifically that it was poorly thought out in my post. But saying you could get a relic instantly, no, just no, you had to go through that as a first step, but yes, it wasn't especially long or grindy for sure (unless you started from ARR hildi, thus the badly thought out).

Now though I'm noticing that you seem to be shifting the goalposts on Hildi though. So you did it because you liked it anyway. Are you saying that relic steps should only be about something that people genuinely dislike doing? I'm afraid to ask, but this could explain so much actually. Why we are having those constant debates. I feel genuinely that a lot of people just cannot accept the idea of having fun, because "grinding shouldn't be about having fun"? Isn't that a little bit masochistic? idk you do you, but that's not what floats my goat.

Is grinding for things like memories more engaging than watching cutscenes? Because your hands are somehow busy maybe? Ok fair I guess?

You keep bringing the 1500 tomes but again, it's not 1500, it's 31500 (and 28500 in EW). Your problem is not a tome problem.

Totally agree with offering more options either way. I feel that it's going to upset the people that spoke about having a list of definitive specific tasks to do though, but there is a point where we end up in mutually exclusive and non reconcilable options.

[OdrN]

I'm surprised the argument "I pay a sub, I should have access to everything in the game, just give me my relic" has not been used yet.

I remember when Yoshi-P said that more players had completed the EW relic than usual. You don't say!
They really have set a dangerous precedent with the EW relic.

Ah! The thrill and satisfaction of finally obtaining that relic! An effort so deep and hard that it's also rewarded with a achievement because you didn't only have to farm 1500 tomes (the ages it takes!) but also find the npc selling the item (he was so far away from the aetheryte!) and then walk hours to an other npc to get the weapon (TP is for the weak), all of this after doing 3 quests (what the heck, I'm not playing FFXIV to do quests and it's not as if I could skip the cutscenes!).

Behind the salt and the irony of this last paragraph (I'm making this clear because there are some people who take things very seriously), a relic in NOT supposed to be easy to get. That's how it is.
There is plenty of ways to get weapons in this game. Some require more effort than others. Some are locked behind difficult content, some are easily purchasable, and others require time; relics fall into this last category (in principle).
If you don't like grind or if you don't have the patience to get it, then the relics are just not made for you.
"Yeah but I want the shiny skin" you may say. I'll answer that I may want some ultimate weapon skin but I don't do ultimate, it's out of my reach. I'm not gonna ask for the ultimate content to be more easy just because I want the skin. Same for relic.
Relics are supposedly made for people who want something to grind to keep them busy in the game. And it's not a thing for nolife of hardcore gamer. Any casual player can get any relic. It just takes more time for them and it's fine, or it should be.
The problem is that nowadays, everyone want everything now. They no more have the patience to work for it.


I think they found an certain balance in DT with a "grindy"-ish first step and then tome farm (even though I would have preferred that the second phase could be accomplished both in roulettes and in OC). At least we have some form of satisfaction when we clear the first step.
But like someone said, I kinda miss ARR books.


Finally, didn't Yoshida say in the last live letter that he wanted to completely rethink how relics work and how they are obtained (because this man really want to please everyone even if it's impossible)?

Whatever they do, the method will surely please and displease people, like every relic.

[UNDEAD10000]

I rather want similar relic grind like we had back in Heavensward that isn't boring tomestone grind like in Endwalker and rogue lite style grind that punish players without friends like in Stormblood, Shadowbringers and Dawntrail.

And in Dawntrail relic weapon is by far worst when i can't even complete the first part of phantom weapon due to FATE's being completed in seconds and critical encounters requires being in party to prevent losing rewards on death.

[Voidmage]

So you did it because you liked it anyway. Are you saying that relic steps should only be about something that people genuinely dislike doing? I'm afraid to ask, but this could explain so much actually. Why we are having those constant debates. I feel genuinely that a lot of people just cannot accept the idea of having fun, because "grinding shouldn't be about having fun"? Isn't that a little bit masochistic? idk you do you, but that's not what floats my goat.

Talk about putting words in others mouths...

I already said that I and others "genuinely enjoyed the slow grinds".
Again, if you dislike getting a relic like it was in the past so much than maybe that content wasn't for you. That's fine but don't go around implying people are masochistic or think relics should be unfun for others just because they like that kind of content.
I don't post here "tomestones should disappear as a means to get a relic" or "Hildibrand should be unskipable" so don't make me out as some kind of villain simply because I disagree with your takes on tomestones being grinds equivalent to past relics.
AGAIN, I don't mind tomestones being a form to get relics as a SECOND option. I SIMPLY disagree though on the notion of them being the SAME type of grind and effort as the other relic currencies and am against them being THE ONLY form of getting a relic.
THAT'S my problem and yes, grinding for memories is more engaging than watching cutsenes.

The 1500 tomestones are for one relic step, same as the atmas in DT were or the "lightfarm" and 1500 tomestones was the cost for one relic step in EW as well each and you could easily have them ready before the patch even dropped.

You not doing your dailies doesn't matter because others do them, even with all jobs maxed and ergo accumulate tomestones automatically. I agree things like pvp or fates in OC should reward a better amount to give more options but the dailies are an option that is there and what most people do anyway.


I am out here. I have better things to do than getting insulted over liking slow grinds in a video game...

[Shipp]

Uh sir, I think you got me confused with someone else, I don't think I've ever complained about anything being too hard or grindy?

Bozja's relics were extremely tedious to me either way, because again, the first TWO steps, not ONE but TWO, were fucking fate atmas again. There sure were shorter for a single weapon than what they used to be, by a lot, but they weren't yet on the level of EW or DT either.




I don't understand that logic. Tomes are grindy.



The only content that offered serious fields ops grinding was Eureka. Bozja's was insanely suboptimal compared to options outside (because lol CBU3), and it only offered that option for what, a couple of steps out of all of them?
If that's the type of relics that YOU personally want, sure, that's fair. I'm not debating this. But saying that roulette is different from fates, how? Both are recycled content.

You were saying?