Is it just me: Frontline

[A-Omega]

I tend to hold the same stance in regard to pve content as well where it's been a crippling problem for a while now, happy to see some people still share this view in a sea of misplaced elitism/gatekeepism.

The good thing about a PvP conversation…we can actually solve or debates on the battlefield lol. All seriousness though. You’re absolutely right.

I’m not the greatest player the world has ever seen, but I’m far from bad and practicing every day. I take every version of PvP/PvE serious. Yup, including frontline/dailies. I don’t wanna see my character lose or be outclassed. I’m very competitive so again, losing ain’t something I wanna do. With that being said, I know most people don’t take frontline/dailies seriously. Doesn’t impact my experience one bit. Dps is lacking in a dungeon run…time to level up and kick that things butt for them. The tank got battle high…hold my tomestone lol. How you approach the game isn’t the problem. How you approach the people who don’t see things the way you do IS.

[Elephantality]

How you approach the people who don’t see things the way you do IS.

As long as they are playing actively, and trying, that's all that matters to me. That's why I am glad we can queue up with friends, so that we can try to win as a strike force while others do whatever they feel like, as long as it's not afk'ing or feeding on purpose (which I have seen people doing). However, I think it's a good idea to make sure their are resources for people to learn and improve if they want to.

[A-Omega]

As long as they are playing actively, and trying, that's all that matters to me. That's why I am glad we can queue up with friends, so that we can try to win as a strike force while others do whatever they feel like, as long as it's not afk'ing or feeding on purpose (which I have seen people doing). However, I think it's a good idea to make sure their are resources for people to learn and improve if they want to.

I totally agree.

I saw your earlier post about the strike force play style. That’s why I think a HVT mode would be great. They can even give the target a kind of battle high to make sure that player has a chance to play.

[Scintilla]

Apologies for my delay in replying - I've only just had chance.

You’re making the mistake of treating all PvP modes as if they share the same weight.

It's not a mistake. This false belief that one duty holds a higher standing to another only emphasizes a lack of experience.

Lack of awareness can lead people to look at something from a superficial aspect, just as a non-gamer may argue that gaming requires no thought because it's 'just pressing buttons'. Anything can be reduced to such levels by unawareness, when there's usually more complexities to it.

If SE wanted FL to function like CC, it wouldn’t have roulette incentives, respawns, and RNG objectives

FL has incentives because of how large-scale it is. For a CC game, only 10 players are needed, which pales in comparison to the 72 players needed for an FL game to happen. The roulette simply helps to maintain a good supply of players.

Secondly, the claim of FL being casual because it contains RNG elements is nonsense. CC maps also contains such elements, for example, the bombs in Volcanic Heart.

It exists as an accessible, large-scale PvP mode.

Yes. Not to everyone's taste, admittedly. The 1v1v1 setup, in particular, being quite controversial.

Personally, I much prefer FL and quite like the 3-team approach. Unlike CC where I only need to worry about one set of opponents, in FL I have to be aware of the positioning and actions of two full alliances. It can be unpredictable, requiring you to adjust your tactics to a changing situation. Although the 1v1v1 setup can lead to difficulties when one of the teams decides they'd rather spend the whole game 2v1ing you rather than focusing the winning team, that setup can prove useful in other ways, like the challenging of premades.

FL doesn’t require the same structure or seriousness as CC

The point about seriousness is also nonsense and part of the issue faced within FLs at the moment. I'm sure you've seen the many threads complaining of premade teams? They certainly pose a challenge, but part of why they're such a headache to defeat is the half-hearted approach which many take.

Of course, perfect play isn't expected, but it is expected of everyone to try their upmost to win. Sadly, too many players prefer to AFK/emote in base and spam basic attacks while watching YouTube because "I only want exp"

Don't put in zero effort because "it's not that deep" and then complain when you lose to a team who is actively trying.

[Scintilla]

Stats??? Still no huh. Have you been exposed as fraudulent.

Obviously my CC one is quite old, given that I only tend to play it when I want commendation crystals for glam. I know better players, but still not bad.

The 'Overall Performance' being the FL games for the alt I play most within PvP, Cherish. It's not counting the games I have played over time on my other characters, including my forum one - Taeryn.

A debate is person against person. In a debate, you provide proof backing your stance. I’ve requested your proof.

I've provided my proof as you insisted. Now it's your turn - both CC and FL.

[Valence]

This debate is a storm in a kettle for the sake of arguing.

Saying that FL isn't casual is misleading specifically because that's the only existing mode for FL with no ranked mode to triage players through skill like ranked CC does (or even pve savage+), therefore expecting everybody to tryhard at the level of premades (as I've seen expressed sometimes on those forums, aka "just do your own premade bruh"), or just playing as well as skilled veterans holds no water for that same specific reason that asking your random Joe the Rouletter in your msq roulette play on a level that would be expected from a savage raider is ludicrous, or expecting casual players from the casual mode of CC suddenly be held to the same standards as crystal/omega/ultima players from the ranked mode.

Similarly, saying that nobody should try to play their best or actually optimize with organized teams in modes like FL is equally nonsensical, for the same reason that telling someone in your average expert roulette that they shouldn't optimize their job because "why bother" makes zero sense, or that they should certainly not attempt no healer speedruns of those either.

If you're speaking of modes where most audiences of players intersect, this is bound to generate friction yes, but expecting the other audiences to cater to one's vision for the mode is beyond bonkers.

[Rabblerabble]

I never go into Frontlines solo expecting to win, i do however do my best every game.

When I queue with a friend and we try to work together, then I go in expecting a little more.

I play primarily on Dynamis and Frontline roulette is the only roulette I leave the DC for, and my mindset is always if I am serious enough to leave the data center for it, I am serious enough to give it my all.

But much like my expectations of people in general I keep my expectations low when it is just me going by myself, it helps "cope" with any disappointment.

[Scintilla]

Saying that FL isn't casual is misleading specifically because that's the only existing mode for FL with no ranked mode to triage players through skill like ranked CC does (or even pve savage+), therefore expecting everybody to tryhard at the level of premades (as I've seen expressed sometimes on those forums, aka "just do your own premade bruh"), or just playing as well as skilled veterans holds no water for that same specific reason that asking your random Joe the Rouletter in your msq roulette play on a level that would be expected from a savage raider is ludicrous, or expecting casual players from the casual mode of CC suddenly be held to the same standards as crystal/omega/ultima players from the ranked mode.

As I said, there is no expectation whatsoever for rouletters to play to the same level of veterans or premades. The important part is that they try and don't just outright dismiss FL as 'it doesn't matter' purely because they themselves have little/no interest in it. All this does is promote the notion that no effort or care is required purely because 'its only FL', hence leading to the many issues faced within FL at the moment. Too many will sit aside and just AFK. If someone attempts to lead in the hope of keeping the team together and maintaining coordination, too often are they faced with people actively and maliciously trying to make that harder (removing markers etc.) or responding with rude, sometimes bordering on abusive, comments. Just try!

As I've said before and I'm sure many FL regulars will agree, if I was paid for every time I heard "Who cares? I'm only here for the exp", I'd never have to work again.


Unfortunately, the structure of FL doesn't lend itself well to a split, ranked system like CC. Requiring so many players, it's almost impossible to divide teams up by rank/experience - lower ranked games would continue with no issues, while higher ranked games would never pop. Not unless the boundaries for those 'ranks' were so wide that there wouldn't be much point to adding them in the first place. Sadly, that's one negative to the design of FL.

And I'm not remotely in favour of the "just do your own premade" attitude that some veteran players take. Casual players are less likely to want to practice if they're being destroyed over and over again or forced into the same meta classes repeatedly just to stand a chance. Some will take it as a challenge and use it to drive their motivation to practice and improve for the purpose of being able to counter a premade. Though, these are few and the majority appear to take the route of 'let them win, end it fast' all while complaining in chat about how premades should be banned.

Both sides share some fault.

[Valence]

You do assume that they do not try, which I find amusing. I haven't seen that "i'm only here for the xp" boogeyman a lot either, it's a bit like that dreaded curebot in pve people like bringing up all the time but that I have yet to see most of the time. I honestly have no idea how many actually do not try, and how many try but not enough to satisfy to your actual standards.

[Elephantality]

And I'm not remotely in favour of the "just do your own premade" attitude that some veteran players take. Casual players are less likely to want to practice if they're being destroyed over and over again or forced into the same meta classes repeatedly just to stand a chance. Some will take it as a challenge and use it to drive their motivation to practice and improve for the purpose of being able to counter a premade. Though, these are few and the majority appear to take the route of 'let them win, end it fast' all while complaining in chat about how premades should be banned.

I don't think removing premades will change anything regarding meta classes being chosen. However, I can understand that it won't be fun being constantly put against premades for casuals. Yet at the same time, premade isn't an autowin button, nor does it = only meta classes. Also sometimes I like to play with friends simply to just have fun, especially on Onsal. On Seal Rock I try to just win because we need 100 wins for the coat. Removing premades will not stop me from trying to work together with the players I get matched with in-game either.