The Purify changes are going to kill Contradance

[Valence]

That's fine. I get where you're coming from. I do sincerely hope patch notes reveal a number of changes that account for the new purify, and I have nothing but dagger eyes toward WHM and BRD right now.

What are your thoughts on Aquaveil and Warden's after that change? I haven't really considered it and I'm not totally sure what it would change?

I'm surprised that's his concern, considering the DRK premade narratives he's shared in his other posts.
Contradance is the critical component of the DRK premade
New Purify would be really helpful against DRK premade

Perhaps I should have specified it, but I'm a CC player first and foremost, and pvp is primarily designed around CC. All of my points on Contradance usability, if you read them, are obviously made within the frame of CC.

But, if we have to extend it to FL, which is fair, then I don't see how this changes anything for DRK sinkholes. You don't need more than one purify to get out of salted earth, and then pray you'll not eat too much damage while doing so and die. On top of it, Contra in FL is a lot less about refreshing the charm and a lot more about snagging as many players as possible, even if they only get charmed for 2s it's enough to delete everybody.

Contra also isn't the only Guard remover, and a lot of coordinated groups use other things like Tenebrae or Primal Scream. If anything, while Contra has the most lethal effect, it's also the hardest to pull in FL because it takes ages to apply, which means going at the same time or before the DRK, and potentially get nuked to oblivion. A RPR or a WAR have a lot more safety built in as they're melees (way tougher), their effect is instantaneous, and a WAR for example can also apply stuff like rampage which is the new actual cheese that everybody seems to glance over.
But anyway, a lot of groups don't even have those jobs. They're the final nail in the coffin to secure kills, but they're not mandatory either.

[ThreeBeastSmile]

Taken in isolation, theoretically applying that change with no other alterations... that Purify thing bodes ill for low mobility jobs too, certainly magnified in modes outside of CC. Namely sam, as I play mostly melee.

I'm fairly ambitious with my dives in mass PvP, often requiring all four heals AND a no MP-cost Purify to make the most out of a self-initiated push and also not die. It's probably the only thrill offered to me in those mass PvP modes rn, and that's being potentially stripped away with the forthcoming change. Further insult to injury was this change being showcased against a samurai, on a move that is often missed with bad ping anyway (Hyosetsu). Don't even get me started on the just over 1 sec of additional glow that Chiten apparently needed for opponents to know the very obvious cd has been used. Even with "some" gfx setting enabled. Gee I wonder if a certain invisible LB has finally been seen to in this coming patch c:

Other side of the coin, and one can see that it meshes suspiciously well with vpr's Scales reset flips... is this a sneaky buff to vpr that's screwing over other jobs in the process? /laugh Again, namely the jobs that can't just sod off to an ally's side or can targetless dash. Then yes, we have those cute jobs that can drain MP too huh~

Like really who was this change meant for, and did anyone really ask for this as an "improvement"? The healers that wanted to be important again? (Don't hit me, I'z bein' flippant mates). There's gonna deffo need to be more reshuffling to make this work out fairly. Rather they just leave that damn skill alone though. Was it the overtime drag? Just reduce the time even more. Ez!

The bit about the stage pot graphic was good though...

/preliminarykneejerktake

[Atreus]

What are your thoughts on Aquaveil and Warden's after that change? I haven't really considered it and I'm not totally sure what it would change?

It's not even those I'm concerned about, it's Miracle of Nature's 2500 MP drain and BRD LB sucking 5000 MP plus the 2500 you'll use to purify silence. If they don't address those two, then WHM and BRD are just insta picks in LP almost no questions asked.

[Mercury_Grey]

He's talking about pre-purifying before using Contradance to eliminate the counterplay of cc'ing the DNC, stopping them from extending the duration to 4 seconds.

ohhh i was confused on the wording.

[Valence]

Taken in isolation, theoretically applying that change with no other alterations... that Purify thing bodes ill for low mobility jobs too, certainly magnified in modes outside of CC. Namely sam, as I play mostly melee.

I'm fairly ambitious with my dives in mass PvP, often requiring all four heals AND a no MP-cost Purify to make the most out of a self-initiated push and also not die. It's probably the only thrill offered to me in those mass PvP modes rn, and that's being potentially stripped away with the forthcoming change. Further insult to injury was this change being showcased against a samurai, on a move that is often missed with bad ping anyway (Hyosetsu). Don't even get me started on the just over 1 sec of additional glow that Chiten apparently needed for opponents to know the very obvious cd has been used. Even with "some" gfx setting enabled. Gee I wonder if a certain invisible LB has finally been seen to in this coming patch c:

Other side of the coin, and one can see that it meshes suspiciously well with vpr's Scales reset flips... is this a sneaky buff to vpr that's screwing over other jobs in the process? /laugh Again, namely the jobs that can't just sod off to an ally's side or can targetless dash. Then yes, we have those cute jobs that can drain MP too huh~

Like really who was this change meant for, and did anyone really ask for this as an "improvement"? The healers that wanted to be important again? (Don't hit me, I'z bein' flippant mates). There's gonna deffo need to be more reshuffling to make this work out fairly. Rather they just leave that damn skill alone though. Was it the overtime drag? Just reduce the time even more. Ez!

The bit about the stage pot graphic was good though...

/preliminarykneejerktake

What role action are you using usually when playing SAM in FL out of curiosity? I find Swift to be incredible value there myself. Bloodbath can make up for more recuperates but this also requires you to stay in the middle of a pack of angry enemies so it may make you live longer but won't make you get actually out.

I personally think the more visual indicators we have in the game, the better it is for accessibility and basic usability. I'd love to have actual shield faint visual effects when someone has barriers up for example. If this means that Chiten and Zantetsuken become too easy to read (which I highly doubt among the clueless masses in mass pvp, but perhaps at higher level notably in CC), then perhaps it means the design also has to adapt or change. My actual problem is that setting effects to limited already removes markers that SHOULD NOT disappear like a lot of LB (MCH, etc). I do hope this isn't gonna be a problem as well there.

I'm personally cautiously optimistic with this Purify change as it makes a lot of sense to me to fix the constant problem of "we're getting crowd controlled to death and perma stunned" but at a cost, which is not only an annoyance in certain CC games where the enemy team is literally RDM + WAR + BRD + PLD or something obnoxious like that on the crowd control side, but also in FLs when you have 15 people suddenly targeting you and stun locking you to death. This means to me, more avenues for escape.

It's not even those I'm concerned about, it's Miracle of Nature's 2500 MP drain and BRD LB sucking 5000 MP plus the 2500 you'll use to purify silence. If they don't address those two, then WHM and BRD are just insta picks in LP almost no questions asked.

Makes sense I guess, though considering how underwhelming DT BRD is, I'm not convinced, but BRD has always performed a little better in LPs.
WHM I don't think is going to change anything, because 2500 MP is still the same as it was, it's not suddenly making you heal or purify less than it already is. It's just on BRD's side that it suddenly synergizes well with Nocturne.

[Mercury_Grey]

I just think at this point SE hates the purify ability and want to slowly make it useless. It already can't do RPR adn DNC lbs. it has a 3 second window that doesn't even do much cause people can jsut ignore you the nfocus you down. Honeslty if it removes an effect make it so for 5 seconds yoru immune to all forms of CC besides NIN and sam LB cause then its a trade off. Do i use it early for cc immunity and be destroyed or wait for like a WHM miracle, use it and actually become immune to all forms of CC

[ThreeBeastSmile]

What role action are you using usually when playing SAM in FL out of curiosity? I find Swift to be incredible value there myself. Bloodbath can make up for more recuperates but this also requires you to stay in the middle of a pack of angry enemies so it may make you live longer but won't make you get actually out.

It isn't as difficult as you might think it is. Bloodbath diving that is, and surviving. It gets a bit more tricky once the premadelings not used to adversity coming from a single source get a bit prickly about it. Bloodbath still remains my pick.

That said, it's totally possible to withstand a poorly plotted gank attempt on you just by having Chiten and Bloodbath rolling at a good time. I do it rather a lot. And when you get a good dive it just feels better than anything else in the game right now (for me), given I've managed to push essentially close to whole alliances away with the fear factor and also my not dying, with a self-initiated push. Can't get that with like... vpr for example, nobody is afraid of me as a vpr (in terms of zoning people out), despite being able to play that too.

I'll be honest I've not tried Swift on sam, not keen on running that job in ratge mode. Two of your attacks are channelled thus wasting the run speed component unless it is just to turn tail, but Meikyo will cover for those usually anyway. Alternating Meikyo and Purify is part of that sustain gameplan so... it costing MP is gonna suck. Depending on how things are tweaked it could be that I do swap and try Swift out, but tbh I'd probably just go back to rpr... or vpr and do silly protected Scales resets.

[Valence]

To be fair if I want to actually tank like you I'd probably get bloodbath even if it can be more dicey than a braindead rampart (due to barriers, positioning, etc, because bloodbath actually plays on skill as well). Swift is better for safety and poking, not for face tanking. You don't use Swift until you have to run away though, so the cast times are irrelevant. Getting in is easy with the 3 dashes.

I can see how it would be worse for situations where you just have to use one purify to get out. On the other hand, when you're getting stun locked after the first use, it's going to shine there.

[Sunhwapark]

use it and actually become immune to all forms of CC

But then my monk lb will be useless

[Mercury_Grey]

But then my monk lb will be useless

MNK LB could ignore purify but hten it deals reduced damage or the stun duration is reduced by half. Still can hit them but you get less damage/cc duration