PvP Frontline, same old, nothing new

[Valence]

There has been exactly one passive aggressive jab, which I regret (how do you want me to fucking write it if premade tanks are hard to kill? Does it mean that's the fault of the premade player or the design behind though???).
Anyway, I'm happy to see that the only thing people seem to care about is screaming about that instead of actually talking about the OP, but that's fine I guess. I'm not interested anymore seeing the results.
Your lack of interest is dully noted, i'll move to something else and leave this topic alone.

[Bonoki]

Premades have been an issue since the introduction of Frontlines, and it may have been even more problematic because entire alliances of 8 players could form. However, I believe it truly became a significant problem for the modern Frotnlines with the rise of the zerg meta. In the past, alliances would often split up and tackle different objectives. When Mount Speed upgrades and earning Battle High through assists were introduced into everything, it became more advantageous to remain together as a whole alliance. It also doesn't help that the Zerg meta means that the game plan is consistently the same between all game modes. It's simplistic. New game mode comes out? Forget the rules, travel together, and drop AoEs. On the other spectrum, I've seen people hate on Rival Wings simply because they are lost, and there is no clear indication of "The Alliance is over here right now" for them to identify easily.

[Valence]

It's something that you can see in modern secure: there is multiple points of action active at the same time (contesting left side, contesting right side, contesting middle when it pops), and even if people wanted to split, which I've tried doing, you can never be sure if you're actually going to get uptime out of it, because sometimes you decide say, to go contest the left side, and you capture points there, and there is nobody in the opposite team to deal with, so it feels like I'm wasting time. But more often it's the opposite, you have 3 people on your side and 10 come you way, so your only option is to get the heck out without doing anything. Only middle is generally invested enough that it will see actionable action to happen no matter what.

All of those mass pvp modes have a very hard time accounting for that when they try to split up forces through diverse mechanics on different locations all happening at the same time. It leaves a little too much freedom to players which ultimately results in choice paralysis in the case of RW, and imbalances in the case of FL.

[Divinemights]

It's something that you can see in modern secure: there is multiple points of action active at the same time (contesting left side, contesting right side, contesting middle when it pops), and even if people wanted to split, which I've tried doing, you can never be sure if you're actually going to get uptime out of it, because sometimes you decide say, to go contest the left side, and you capture points there, and there is nobody in the opposite team to deal with, so it feels like I'm wasting time. But more often it's the opposite, you have 3 people on your side and 10 come you way, so your only option is to get the heck out without doing anything. Only middle is generally invested enough that it will see actionable action to happen no matter what.

All of those mass pvp modes have a very hard time accounting for that when they try to split up forces through diverse mechanics on different locations all happening at the same time. It leaves a little too much freedom to players which ultimately results in choice paralysis in the case of RW, and imbalances in the case of FL.

The new Secure is not Onsal Hakair or Seal Rock; its overall design doesn’t take into account the typical "horde stomp" behavior of NA players.
Secure is intended to create a three-way conflict, with teams contesting control over three separate fronts—left, right, and top.
However, in practice, many NA players treat it like just another Onsal Hakair, mindlessly zerging objectives instead of playing strategically.

You can refer to the video below to see how Japanese alliances approach Secure.
In the JP region, players tend to split up efficiently, follow commands, and coordinate.
Everyone understands their role, and you rarely see the kind of internal resistance to leadership that’s common in NA matches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Oz4PKmSIbU

There’s no way Square Enix intentionally tuned Secure or Shatter to play like another Seal Rock.
These modes were clearly designed with distinct objectives and map structures in mind.
Secure encourages multi-front engagements and coordinated control of outposts, while Shatter is built around burst-objective spawn timing and AoE-focused teamfights.

Yet in the NA data centers, player behavior often reduces these modes to mindless zerg-fests, completely bypassing the strategic depth built into them.
Instead of splitting to contest multiple points or timing engagements properly, teams just blob together and roll from fight to fight; treating every Frontline map like a reskinned Onsal Hakair.

[Atreus]

The new Secure is not Onsal Hakair or Seal Rock; its overall design doesn’t take into account the typical "horde stomp" behavior of NA players.
Secure is intended to create a three-way conflict, with teams contesting control over three separate fronts—left, right, and top.
However, in practice, many NA players treat it like just another Onsal Hakair, mindlessly zerging objectives instead of playing strategically.

You can refer to the video below to see how Japanese alliances approach Secure.
In the JP region, players tend to split up efficiently, follow commands, and coordinate.
Everyone understands their role, and you rarely see the kind of internal resistance to leadership that’s common in NA matches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Oz4PKmSIbU

There’s no way Square Enix intentionally tuned Secure or Shatter to play like another Seal Rock.
These modes were clearly designed with distinct objectives and map structures in mind.
Secure encourages multi-front engagements and coordinated control of outposts, while Shatter is built around burst-objective spawn timing and AoE-focused teamfights.

Yet in the NA data centers, player behavior often reduces these modes to mindless zerg-fests, completely bypassing the strategic depth built into them.
Instead of splitting to contest multiple points or timing engagements properly, teams just blob together and roll from fight to fight; treating every Frontline map like a reskinned Onsal Hakair.

Man this is exactly how NA (at least Aether) used to do it in 2.0 when Secure came out lol. Every little change over the years to points, battle high, mount speed, and even premades elimination slowly devolved our Frontline culture to what it is now.


edit: clarified a word, so people understand my stance that limiting premades has hurt the mode.

[Valence]

The new Secure is not Onsal Hakair or Seal Rock; its overall design doesn’t take into account the typical "horde stomp" behavior of NA players.
Secure is intended to create a three-way conflict, with teams contesting control over three separate fronts—left, right, and top.
However, in practice, many NA players treat it like just another Onsal Hakair, mindlessly zerging objectives instead of playing strategically.

You can refer to the video below to see how Japanese alliances approach Secure.
In the JP region, players tend to split up efficiently, follow commands, and coordinate.
Everyone understands their role, and you rarely see the kind of internal resistance to leadership that’s common in NA matches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Oz4PKmSIbU

There’s no way Square Enix intentionally tuned Secure or Shatter to play like another Seal Rock.
These modes were clearly designed with distinct objectives and map structures in mind.
Secure encourages multi-front engagements and coordinated control of outposts, while Shatter is built around burst-objective spawn timing and AoE-focused teamfights.

Yet in the NA data centers, player behavior often reduces these modes to mindless zerg-fests, completely bypassing the strategic depth built into them.
Instead of splitting to contest multiple points or timing engagements properly, teams just blob together and roll from fight to fight; treating every Frontline map like a reskinned Onsal Hakair.

(why do you keep assuming I play on NA I don't even)

If you refer to the opening of the video, perhaps they look a bit more organized or better split than we have on EU, but skip to 3min and beyond and it turns into the exact same meta with blobs and DRK sinkholes with the same doritos above the head and similar burst macros. All in all, that's what I assumed, people fancy thinking JP is different, but not that much. Even more so, at 6min the whole alliance is a single blob in the middle, even on EU I've not seen that happen on Secure.

As for resistance to leadership, again, I'll just say that if it happens on NA, it doesn't on EU, so this makes from what I see EU play very similarly to JP, and it's a blob fiesta steamrolling over a scattered opposition. All of what you explained is nice and probably the intent behind the design of the map, but all I'm seeing on that video is people specifically only following the principle for less than 3min at the beginning.

Thanks for someone finally providing a video example though, props for that.

[Divinemights]

(why do you keep assuming I play on NA I don't even)

If you refer to the opening of the video, perhaps they look a bit more organized or better split than we have on EU, but skip to 3min and beyond and it turns into the exact same meta with blobs and DRK sinkholes with the same doritos above the head and similar burst macros. All in all, that's what I assumed, people fancy thinking JP is different, but not that much. Even more so, at 6min the whole alliance is a single blob in the middle, even on EU I've not seen that happen on Secure.

As for resistance to leadership, again, I'll just say that if it happens on NA, it doesn't on EU, so this makes from what I see EU play very similarly to JP, and it's a blob fiesta steamrolling over a scattered opposition. All of what you explained is nice and probably the intent behind the design of the map, but all I'm seeing on that video is people specifically only following the principle for less than 3min at the beginning.

Thanks for someone finally providing a video example though, props for that.

Is that what matters to you?
I don’t care where you play.
My feedback is based on my long experience playing on Primal, which is in NA.
I certainly could have just typed NA/EU, but does that even impact what I’m trying to say?

You strongly emphasize DRK this and DRK that, but that’s just the current meta—and metas change.
Considering how coordinated Japanese players are, you’re definitely going to see it.
They also know how to counter DRK play—so why do you ignore that?

You also seem to complain about premades a lot, but I fail to see the reason—other than that you don’t want to face coordinated play
Not everyone will share the same opinion, especially since videos from Japanese players have already shown that even randoms can coordinate effectively.
You choose to ignore that and instead pick irrelevant clips to support your narrative about DRK.
Why is that?

[Valence]

Why do I ignore how they counter DRK play you say? I think I already answered this multiple times, but you seem deaf to that argument (another DRK stack is a better and easier counter than anything else specifically tailored against it, for the simple reason it allows you to kill a bird with two stones by being competitive against other DRK stacks AND also steamrolling as well, what's not to like?).
Either way, glad to see that we're now talking about what matters in the OP: the actual design of current frontlines, AoE stacking, and the relation to new role actions like Rampage, etc.

You keep talking about how JP are so much better but the video you linked is literally gameplay one could find on EU any day, with the minor exception that they seem to know about /return a bit more. Otherwise? Same blobbing, same AoE stacking strats and bursts, you can even see the video recorder bullying a clueless bard 1v1 that just gets deleted so you can't be serious telling me JP players are actually better. If anything this makes me chuckle because it's so much of a familiar sight on any DC that it just seems to confirm my initial take, that there is little differences between DCs in spite of what people insist them to be. So far this video literally debunks everything that's been advanced so far, that JP plays differently (they don't, they use the same strats, comps, macros, signs, and they do blob the same way), that JP plays better (they have the same steamrolling groups seal clubbing the rest of a mass of players clueless to various degrees).

You also keep assuming I'm obsessed with DRK, but if you had read the actual thread I seem to have specifically pointed out at a lot of different other trends, notably around tanks. As you said yourself, the meta changes, and I don't like the meta, and I exposed my reasons as to why, yet nobody is able to actually come with anything countering it. So far all I've had is that I'm "obsessed about DRK", that I'm "complaining about premades or hating on premades (lolwut?)", or that what I'm saying is irrelevant because western audiences have no skill and don't play the mode right, while JP does (which is obviously wrong seeing the footage, which tends to show that the whole playerbase plays the mode "wrong" if that type of gameplay wasn't the design intent).

So indeed, why is that?


Edit: almost forgot to address the point about "not wanting to face coordinated play", which is a bold assumption considering that I've always said I want to be able to play with my friends in premades in older posts from people actually complaining about premades and asking them to be removed (which is not something I ever did, again, but keep going for that strawman I beg of you), and I've always said that I do enjoy the challenge facing other skilled players or deleting cocky BH5s. if you think that my problem is actually coordinated play, then sorry but this is hilarious.

The actual problem of coordinated play is that it pushes a gameplay so remote from what everybody else is doing, that it either forces people to adopt it and coordinate, or just lose the game. This is what drives the chasm between both communities of players, and this is also why I'm asking the devs if the current play styles found in FL is what the devs intended for the mode.

[Divinemights]

Why do I ignore how they counter DRK play you say? I think I already answered this multiple times, but you seem deaf to that argument (another DRK stack is a better and easier counter than anything else specifically tailored against it, for the simple reason it allows you to kill a bird with two stones by being competitive against other DRK stacks AND also steamrolling as well, what's not to like?).
Either way, glad to see that we're now talking about what matters in the OP: the actual design of current frontlines, AoE stacking, and the relation to new role actions like Rampage, etc.

Let me get the facts straight.
In the very first post I made in this thread, I didn’t even mention your narratives about DRK or premades.
I was simply explaining how NA players' frontline culture evolved into what we currently have (which Arteus clearly understands).
You were the one who hijacked the conversation and cherry-picked unrelated sections of the video to support your narrative, not me.
All I said was that NA players tend to blob together and roll from fight to fight, treating every Frontline map like a reskinned Onsal Hakair.
Where did I ever say that EN (or EU, since you insisted) player skill is equivalent or not equivalent to Japanese players?
You’re not just assuming; you’re putting words in my mouth.

Now that we’ve got that sorted out:
What do you want?

The root cause of current NA player behavior is tied to how our Frontline culture developed.
DRK is the current meta, but before that it was WAR/PLD charging into the enemy, followed by the horde AoE-ing everything down.
Nothing has changed.
Even you deleted the DRK, NA/EU players will still play every Fronline mode like a a reskinned Onsal Hakair.

I'll be honest,I’m not really concerned about your narrative around DRK premades. (especially considering I didn’t even participate when it was you versus others on that topic)
You’re not the first to bring it up, and you won’t be the last.
Premades and DRK wouldn’t even be an issue if it weren’t for the current NA/EU behavior, which is locked into a “horde stampede” mindset.
You can’t change the behavior of NA/EU players, and honestly, I don’t think you have a solid basis to ask SE to make changes when other regions aren’t showing the same patterns.

In the end, it really comes down to this—what exactly do you expect to happen?
Be practical, and don’t suggest things like banning premades or nerfing DRK.
Those arguments are getting really, really old.

[Valence]

I mean as long as we'll disagree so strongly on how JP plays differently from western players or not, I see little ways for us to even reconcile anything or agree or anything. This is the fundamental basis of agreement that's lacking. You linked a video to show me how JP is supposedly playing different where "everyone understands their role", and I've analyzed everything I've seen on the video. I'm actually glad someone could finally provide some footage of JP Frontline, because it's not that easy to verify by oneself without crazy amounts of efforts.
And the thing I've seen is that there seems to be better organization at the opening until minute 3 where you have 3 groups pushing each of the 3 fronts for the team. Past that, it turns into a familiar spectacle I've witnessed everywhere on western DCs.

So please, let's not try and pretend that JP isn't about "horde stampede" because that video clearly shows otherwise, it's been a giant blob mowing down everything as soon as minute 3 happened.

The root cause of current NA player behavior is tied to how our Frontline culture developed.
DRK is the current meta, but before that it was WAR/PLD charging into the enemy, followed by the horde AoE-ing everything down.
Nothing has changed.
Even you deleted the DRK, NA/EU players will still play every Fronline mode like a a reskinned Onsal Hakair.

I do agree with this, it's been like that since the pvp changes in EW that made AoE suddenly viable in FL. It's been like that everywhere since then, for obvious reasons. DRK has just been the most convenient enabler for it to happen, like other jobs in combination to it (DNC, RPR, WAR), but it's hardly the root cause of the problem. The problem is a combination of things that add up: AoE stacking, job enablers like DRK, and role action enables like Comet, Rampage and Rampart, but perhaps that's how the devs actually see the mode to be played, by stacking as many of those advantages together until they get out of hand, a bit like you want to stack 2min party buffs in pve, who knows. Frankly, playing with meta coordinated groups in FL almost feels like pve at times, with exact timers to follow down to the T.

You're still deadset into saying that I'm obsessed with DRK, but I invite you to re read what I'm actually writing because this is starting to be very frustrating to constantly repeat that I've pointed at other strats and trends I've noticed especially since the addition of role actions.

At this point I don't know how I can make it clearer that I'm not on a path to destroy DRK and point fingers at it, no more than I am hating on premades and want them removed. I have a feeling that most people that answered in this thread came with other agendas in mind and didn't care one bit about what I actually wrote because they just want to drop their own strawmen and paint me as a DRK/premade hater.

In the end, it really comes down to this—what exactly do you expect to happen?
Be practical, and don’t suggest things like banning premades or nerfing DRK.
Those arguments are getting really, really old.

Rework or remove Rampage, nerf or remove Rampart, as those clearly mess way too much with innate damage resistances and the overall mitigation of the mode and put too much of a weight on tanks.

This is also a delicate issue they have been juggling with because for the casual players, melees are unplayable as they keep dying because they don't have the skill nor awareness of how to engage and retreat. This is why melees and especially tanks that don't have any zoom out options, keep being buffed in order for casual players not to feel absolutely useless with them, but in return this also makes melees and tanks incredibly overpowered tools in the hands of good players that do know how to use them. I don't have easy answers for this, but clearly what I wrote above would be a good start.

Edit: oh, and yeah, rework Battle High so that points are split and shared between assists, and don't reward kills more than assists either. A 10 point kill should result in everybody getting 1 point if all the assists are 10 or above. Similarly, a 10 point kill should result in people getting 5 points if two people only participate. Of course, perhaps a kill should be worth more to compensate, like 20 points, split between all participants. I'm not deadset on the exact amount, I don't know what would be the most balanced there.