PvP Frontline, same old, nothing new

[Valence]

So then you're dissatisfied with the general lack of skill or lack of effort of your average NA player? I mean I get it, it's frustrating to be on that team that just stands there, tunnel-visioning when you see an obvious (oftentimes marked) DRK running-up to plunge into a cluster of unaware people whose only reaction is to run the opposite direction and end up dying instead of reactively Guarding or Purifying and surviving the follow-ups. Something like that is completely possible outside of premades anyway though. All it takes is one DRK with a macro and a team that pays attention and can chew gum and walk. As I already stated, that's always going to be a skill issue. People have the tools to mitigate and lessen the impact of it. The problem is most aren't even aware of them.

No I'm not, and I haven't played on NA since Stormblood either. I'm dissatisfied with the state of the game design of this mode. I don't know how clearer I can make this.
It's not even about DRKs that much anymore, it's a much wider problem.

While it's not plastered all over about how the JP function in Frontlines, a little searching in places like here or even reddit of all places do have some people providing comments or even detailed insight to how their behaviors out on the JP datacenter works. I'd be happy to give you a quick and dirty rundown of what I've gathered/seen regarding how their side treats Frontlines if you're looking for specifics:

• 1) This is going to be the biggest one, but teams are most often times directed by a single commander/shot-caller. Many times all three teams have one. This person will do everything from alert the team to spawning objectives like mid drones in Secure to directing the team around the map and directing where to attack with macros. The team listens. There's no 3-4 different people all backseat commanding or bickering about it. Nobody whining about a sound macro. At the end of the game, people thank said person for commanding. We see bits and pieces of this on NA, but not as profoundly as on JP games. Because of point #2:
  
• 2) They are very team-oriented. They don't have nearly the same amount of ego as NA has. They do not like sticking-out or causing trouble for others. Everybody queued-up is intending to put in effort. Back when roles used to matter in Frontlines, they would be sure to have a couple healers and a tank in a party. Not stay on 3 BRDs, 3 MCHs, a DRG and maybe a SMN. As I already mentioned, there are no people queuing "just to get tomestones," so the player skill disparity is smaller. If you are identified as being disruptive or trying to hide, you'll probably get vote-kicked.
  
• 3) Due to points 1 and 2, matches are usually always close. None of these largely helpless blowouts we commonly see on NA; which exists because of both general lethargic and and oftentimes directionless teams of the blind leading the blind. They don't have entire games of both losing teams griefing each other; first place is usually getting constantly pincered.

They absolutely can and do run AoE doomstacks; the difference is they might have to work harder and smarter for it than NA's DRK -> profit meta usually works out. On NA, you plunge-in on DRK with a couple AoE jobs supporting and you'll likely kill at least almost a full party-worth of people with minimal issues. On JP, unless you're sneaky about it, you'll probably only kill 2-3 people while maybe being bounced-back by attentive enemies with knock-backs or WAR chaining you and other focused cc. And they sure as heck don't take their ball and go home and mentally check-out after seeing 1 DRK draw-in kill a chunk of their team.

Really, you could almost say a lot of the meta NA premades are just replicating what JP regularly practices. The difference seems to be that usually only enough players on one team cares enough to coordinate, so it always stands out when it happens.

1) It's a NA problem. I've rarely seen more than one commander on the EU side, and when they know what they're doing, it works at a macro level. I've commanded quite a bit as well, some teams are very responsive while some aren't. Some are combative, while some aren't, which is something you'll find universally everywhere depending on the quality of the players. Having a disgruntled player about a macro happens, but I think I can count the amount of games where I've seen this on the fingers of my hand. Overall on EU it varies, some periods you'll have commanders with decent to competent directions most of the time, some like currently are mostly silent unless someone decides to start something, and it also depends of the map.

2) I do remember playing on NA when the amount of healers decided who won or lost, and most of the time people swapped jobs to ensure there was at least one per party and often we ended up with two (optimal). There was always times where nobody wanted and the team was doomed, but most of the time I do remember us getting at least a healer, which wasn't optimal, but this goes again against those cultural stereotypes people like to spread around in blanket statements (which i'm also guilty of doing). I also do not see a lot of people trying to hide on EU currently. There is always going to be bad apples here and there but they are horror stories and strawmen in my experience. I do have kicked one or two occasionally that stood on spawn, but then again, if they do this on JP as well, then it's no different from here.

3) Again I don't know how NA has turned those days. What you describe sounds absolutely messy. That's not how EU is however. Skill disparity, perhaps, I don't know.

Okay, but the feedback here is sounding a lot like: "my team is bad, I want a system that dumbs down everything so when we face a team that is good, there's less skill expression for them to outplay us with." Hyperbolic, yes, but after the bare minimum of what I just described on JP server Frontlines, the defining problem is oftentimes just "PEBCAK." Which is why I am trying to explain that the cultural differences in how JP behave in Frontlines as opposed to NA causes this perceived belief that the mode is fundamentally flawed (which it can be in other areas) when it actually boils down to skill differences.

So really, what's your feedback? DRK draw-in is oppressive? There's already threads for that (though I'd like to point-out they haven't changed that aspect about DRK this entire time). There's too many AoEs? Yeah, fair, maybe there is. People die too quickly? Can probably blame the existence of Guard, stacks of self-heals and elixirs on-demand for that. To be honest, any feedback approaching that got drowned-out by the all the talk and jabs at premades, tryhards and veterans. If your feedback isn't just "bitching about premades" then your introductory post itself has a strange way of wording it.

Then re-read my introductory post instead of making strawmen about it.

[Valence]

Also if you people think it's still about DRK stacks, it's not. The meta is literally running all tanks with rampart and perhaps one with rampage. I've ever seen multiple premade combos with full tanks at the frontline soaking everything and crowd controlling people and having casters saturate the place with comets.
Whatever you go for, tanks are literally unkillable (you can even go yourself as a tank right into a group of premades and other BH5 enemy players with rampart and odds are you'll still live, that's how OP this crap is).
This is literally what the OP has been about, nothing is balanced nor added with careful consideration. You'd think role actions that are definitely designed for the mode itself (and NOT crystalline conflict) would work better with FL since they wouldn't have the excuse that balance is made around CC, but no, even that, it's a disaster.

[Mawlzy]

Also if you people think it's still about DRK stacks, it's not. The meta is literally running all tanks with rampart and perhaps one with rampage. I've ever seen multiple premade combos with full tanks at the frontline soaking everything and crowd controlling people and having casters saturate the place with comets.
Whatever you go for, tanks are literally unkillable (you can even go yourself as a tank right into a group of premades and other BH5 enemy players with rampart and odds are you'll still live, that's how OP this crap is).
This is literally what the OP has been about, nothing is balanced nor added with careful consideration. You'd think role actions that are definitely designed for the mode itself (and NOT crystalline conflict) would work better with FL since they wouldn't have the excuse that balance is made around CC, but no, even that, it's a disaster.

There's definitely been an evolution on Aether since the release of the 7.2 changes.

Initially basically nobody was playing tank, but shortening the animations and the buff to PLD has modified the meta, and we're seeing more tank-heavy stacks.

I was still quite enjoying it, but the mogtome thing has had it's usual impact. The last match I played, there were 11 players who managed less than 100k damage.

[Atreus]

If you think this is bitching about premades, then I'm afraid your also totally missed the point.
Funny how giving feedback is suddenly "bitching about premades" when it's not glorifying the mode, but when it is, then it becomes "gameplay feedback".

You keep asking me for research and to get my own evidence yet I've yet to see anybody actually explain to me how it behaves differently on JP. All I've been told is that they don't have the problem. Then why? What is the meta they do follow? Do they also use AoE doomstacks? If not, then why? What makes it so different as what people claim? Even in the west when you get queue syncs, people don't suddenly change their meta when every team is filled with premades, because it still steamrolls as well as it does, and it also counters itself the best.

You wanted to know the differences, that's what it is.

[NevaehQuest]

after 5 years sam still oneshot you. nothing changed

[Valence]

You wanted to know the differences, that's what it is.

That's what is what?

[Cidel]

1) It's a NA problem. I've rarely seen more than one commander on the EU side, and when they know what they're doing, it works at a macro level. I've commanded quite a bit as well, some teams are very responsive while some aren't. Some are combative, while some aren't, which is something you'll find universally everywhere depending on the quality of the players. Having a disgruntled player about a macro happens, but I think I can count the amount of games where I've seen this on the fingers of my hand. Overall on EU it varies, some periods you'll have commanders with decent to competent directions most of the time, some like currently are mostly silent unless someone decides to start something, and it also depends of the map.

2) I do remember playing on NA when the amount of healers decided who won or lost, and most of the time people swapped jobs to ensure there was at least one per party and often we ended up with two (optimal). There was always times where nobody wanted and the team was doomed, but most of the time I do remember us getting at least a healer, which wasn't optimal, but this goes again against those cultural stereotypes people like to spread around in blanket statements (which i'm also guilty of doing). I also do not see a lot of people trying to hide on EU currently. There is always going to be bad apples here and there but they are horror stories and strawmen in my experience. I do have kicked one or two occasionally that stood on spawn, but then again, if they do this on JP as well, then it's no different from here.

3) Again I don't know how NA has turned those days. What you describe sounds absolutely messy. That's not how EU is however. Skill disparity, perhaps, I don't know.

Y'know, I was in the middle of typing out a response to each of yours, but then I realized that if you're going to respond with arguments about about how EU plays instead of NA, and cherry-pick instances of "well sometimes we do this too, so it's basically the same" (which is not the equivalent to an unspoken behavior/ a regular habit of theirs), then there really isn't a point of explaining to you why the JP crowd would have less grievances about the current Frontlines system. You say you don't think it is about skill disparities, while telling me your EU games can end in under 5 minutes and devolve into seal clubbing. Yeah, okay. Everyone is just imagining JP matches being more coordinated and closer in score and can just dismiss it as stereotypes.

Then re-read my introductory post instead of making strawmen about it.

How's this? How about we re-read it together then?

I must admit I haven't done a lot of FL games since the last moogle event. But all I can say is that going for some more with the new moogle event, nothing has changed, it's still a premade fiesta focused around a game design that's all about AoE concentration to wipe whole alliances and steamroll games with little skill involved beyond having the right group. The DRK pulls in are still going stronger than ever, and this is further compounded by new role actions like Rampage and Comet.

All of this makes me think that the way FL are designed probably works for games full of pvp FL veterans all with their own little premades, or in short, what you'd get with custom games. This is ironic considering that the mode has been constantly served to everyone, casuals and players leveling their jobs especially with the rewards of the daily. This feels like a huge cognitive dissonance because the systems that are designed in the mode make everything insanely lethal (a whole alliance will die under 5s) when the mode is served to people that do not have the means to group up and pull the same tactics, leaving them at the mercy of the minority of tryhards that can (and are also more skilled at pvp). This generate situations where it's just seal clubbing time with games ending in 5 minutes tops. If anything, tryhard groups will farm their tomes faster that way and casuals will just be happy for games to end faster so they earn theirs faster as well...

All I'm asking SE is: is this what the experience is intended to be? Is this supposed to be fun and engaging? I'd have thought that with the new additions we got last patch added to FL (role actions, etc), we'd have shifted the design toward something a little more suitable to the actual playerbase using the mode, but I guess not? You didn't even try to address anything, the only thing you cared about was adding "fun new toys" to the mode without any consideration for its viability in the first place. We're still pandering to the few sweaty tryhards that brainlessly steamroll over the rest because that's the kind of imbalances that the design behind FL has been pulling for ages now?

...Sure saw a lot of enmity there for premades and "tryhards." Can't be a strawman when you allude to it several times in one post.

Also if you people think it's still about DRK stacks, it's not.

...it's still a premade fiesta focused around a game design that's all about AoE concentration to wipe whole alliances and steamroll games with little skill involved beyond having the right group. The DRK pulls in are still going stronger than ever...

...So... which is it? Are the DRK shenanigans part of the problem or not?

The meta is literally running all tanks with rampart and perhaps one with rampage. I've ever seen multiple premade combos with full tanks at the frontline soaking everything and crowd controlling people and having casters saturate the place with comets.
Whatever you go for, tanks are literally unkillable (you can even go yourself as a tank right into a group of premades and other BH5 enemy players with rampart and odds are you'll still live, that's how OP this crap is).

Oh, well I guess my anecdotal NA games haven't seen many tanks running amok nor saturated comets (which are easier to run out of and guard compared to tactical Bahamut nukes or Macrocosmos and OG DRG LBs . Sounds like an EU thing maybe. I also see tanks getting killed all the time, it really just comes down to the individual tank's skill and the skill of the team their up against. But tanks actually being tanky and distracting entire teams with their fictitious 100-malm provoke to keep their squishier teammates from being targeted by other ranged enemies sounds awful.

[Valence]

How's this? How about we re-read it together then?

Yes, indeed, how about we do re-read it together?

- "nothing has changed, it's still a premade fiesta": how in the actual hell is this even aggroing on premades? You'll have to explain this to me because just quoting parts having the word premade inside doesn't instantly make it hostile to premades, you know?
- "steamroll games with little skill involved beyond having the right group" : I do stand by my words, and perhaps then we'll just disagree on principle, especially when the result is just seal clubbing.
- "The DRK pulls in are still going stronger than ever": you got me good there, good job. Of course there is DRKs everywhere, they didn't evidently vanish. The meta has just widened on tanks notably, but you'll most often find at least a DRK trying to still pull the usual strat.
- "works for games full of pvp FL veterans all with their own little premades": once more, just because there is written premade in the quoted text doesn't make it automatically hostile to premades, and in fact there if you actually take it in context it's specifically written that FL seems balanced for custom FLs full of premades (which is a mode that still shines by its absence).
- "the minority of tryhards" / "tryhard groups will farm their tomes": if you consider tryhard is derogatory, then I apologize, because I don't, especially when it's been seen used countless times by players just speaking along the lines of "I'm tryharding this run".
- "are also more skilled at pvp": how in the deepest pits of hell is recognizing basic skill, pressing buttons and the ability not to feed, even hostile to premades?!
- "it's just seal clubbing time": again, how is this hostile to premades? It's literally just stating that people are getting slaughtered/farmed by those groups. You've indicated your condescension for the players that have, according to you, no skill and should get gud as an explanation for this, I've countered by saying including in this OP that I do believe that the source of such issues almost always comes from the developer and design decisions that may magnify problems (including skill differences), or create such issues. If anything, it's your interventions that seem hostile to casual players, not mine being hostile to premades.

The only one I'll grant to you is that one: "We're still pandering to the few sweaty tryhards that brainlessly steamroll over the rest". It's clearly a blanket statement with derogatory terms like brainless and sweaty. But don't go and pretend that this is the essence of the OP, else you're just being, yes, disingenuous and trying to misconstrue the OP.

Y'know, I was in the middle of typing out a response to each of yours, but then I realized that if you're going to respond with arguments about about how EU plays instead of NA, and cherry-pick instances of "well sometimes we do this too, so it's basically the same" (which is not the equivalent to an unspoken behavior/ a regular habit of theirs), then there really isn't a point of explaining to you why the JP crowd would have less grievances about the current Frontlines system. You say you don't think it is about skill disparities, while telling me your EU games can end in under 5 minutes and devolve into seal clubbing. Yeah, okay. Everyone is just imagining JP matches being more coordinated and closer in score and can just dismiss it as stereotypes.

What you quoted is essentially a NA problem if true, as I said. It's never been about cherry picking.
I don't see this on EU much if at all. And yet EU still suffers from similar issues, which is indicative to me that the situations that you pointed as happening on your end isn't the core source of the problem since it barely happens on my end, and if you want to disagree on this, feel free to, but you're not gonna change my mind beyond pitying NA for having to deal with what you listed. It must genuinely suck.

The only thing you're consistently tried so far is trying to shift the subject back to strawmen, and the subject has never been about blaming premades.


Edit: if you actually want to shit on premade haters or just state your disagreement with people blaming said premades for all the woes on earth, then I'd respectfully point you to that other active thread currently called "Ban Premades from Frontlines".

[Cidel]

Oh please, don't even try to backpedal like your tone didn't have a passive-aggressive slant to the topic of premades written all-over it. You even already admitted there was jadedness towards them.

- "nothing has changed, it's still a premade fiesta": how in the actual hell is this even aggroing on premades? You'll have to explain this to me because just quoting parts having the word premade inside doesn't instantly make it hostile to premades, you know?

So when you make a thread about how there are "problems" in Frontlines, while going straight into this comment right at the beginning, how is this not harping on the mere existence of premades? And really? How does calling it a 'premade fiesta' not carry a negative connotation the same way people call things "clown fiestas" and such when they mean to mock something? But sure, be pedantic about it. Next thing you're gonna tell me is that fiesta actually technically means celebration or festivities in Spanish so it's actually good.

- "The DRK pulls in are still going stronger than ever": you got me good there, good job. Of course there is DRKs everywhere, they didn't evidently vanish. The meta has just widened on tanks notably, but you'll most often find at least a DRK trying to still pull the usual strat.

Yup, sure did got you good. "It's not even about DRKs that much, but I'll throw it into my opening gripe, just because." And not just going stronger than ever, but also "further compounded," *gasp* If it wasn't some sort of issue to you, you wouldn't have brought it up.

-- "works for games full of pvp FL veterans all with their own little premades": once more, just because there is written premade in the quoted text doesn't make it automatically hostile to premades, and in fact there if you actually take it in context it's specifically written that FL seems balanced for custom FLs full of premades (which is a mode that still shines by its absence).

Let's stop pretending there wasn't an ounce of condemnation in that line. The same way someone flippantly says anything about someone's "own little x." "Their own little clique," "their own little world," etc. Really, why do I even need to explain the obvious passive-aggressiveness tone in your own post? When you ask somebody "is this supposed to be fun?" 19 out of 20 times it's with a sarcastic or acerbic tone.

- "the minority of tryhards" / "tryhard groups will farm their tomes": if you consider tryhard is derogatory, then I apologize, because I don't, especially when it's been seen used countless times by players just speaking along the lines of "I'm tryharding this run".

Well, then I forgive you on this one if you sincerely don't. But by and large most people will see tryhard as carrying derogatory connotations, especially when it's frequently used as a term to describe people who are serious about something that the person using the word finds to be mockingly beneath them. FYI calling someone a "tryhard" and saying you yourself are "tryharding something" carry two separate tones, the same way calling someone a "no-lifer" and saying you are going to "no-life" something have two completely different intentions. But no, you knew that, didn't you? That's why you used "sweaty tryhards" later in the same post.

Like, really. I don't know why I even have to bother explaining it all to you, and while I could definitely give a break-down of every line you want to try and get technical over, it's just easier to identify that you're probably intentionally being pedantic about your word choice in an attempt to gaslight on just how much you actually blame skilled players in premades.

I mean, "how is accusing premades of seal-clubbing hostile to premades?" Really? We're going to be obtuse about the metaphors too? You're right. An activity with a negative implication being used to describe premades can't possibly be construed as being hostile towards premades, right?

-The only one I'll grant to you is that one: "We're still pandering to the few sweaty tryhards that brainlessly steamroll over the rest". It's clearly a blanket statement with derogatory terms like brainless and sweaty. But don't go and pretend that this is the essence of the OP, else you're just being, yes, disingenuous and trying to misconstrue the OP.

Right, because that one would be really hard to come-up with mental gymnastics to convince anybody that you didn't say that without any hint of animosity to the premades that you are so obviously referring to. Seriously, don't you go and pretend that this isn't your entire underlying opinion of the premades "steamrolling" and "seal-clubbing."

I'm glad you decided to include that last one and own-up to it, because that's where the mask slipped and I could infer that the entire thing was full of passive-aggressive jabs at premades. I didn't misconstrue anything; you tried to disingenuously backpedal your statements when that entire last line told-on you.

-You've indicated your condescension for the players that have, according to you, no skill and should get gud as an explanation for this, I've countered by saying including in this OP that I do believe that the source of such issues almost always comes from the developer and design decisions that may magnify problems (including skill differences), or create such issues. If anything, it's your interventions that seem hostile to casual players, not mine being hostile to premades.

While conveniently leaving-out the inconvenient JP playerbase's handle of the mode. I mean after all, it is easier to just blame the developers then have anybody look inwards, right? If they were getting steamrolled too, they would be suffering the same way and of course the developers would be at fault for everything. They could do everything right and the skill-disparities brought on by low-effort tomestone farmers and indifferent players would still result in "steamrolls." This is a player mentality issue first, before any design changes can fix it.

You, on the other-hand, continue to sidestep the primary cause of skill-disparity (hint: it's not role-actions being added), continuously dismiss JP behavior in the mode as to put all their focus to how western audiences participate instead as the "actual playerbase using the mode," and have such thinly-veiled contempt for premades and higher-skilled players "seal-clubbing" (while pretending not to), and think getting up on your soapbox and spouting rhetorical questions after posting a glorified blogpost is "feedback" anybody can use.

I don't think you actually know what you want, you just want to complain about lopsided matches and instead of understand the actual root causes of them, tell the developers to "fix it so that it can't happen."

I don't see this on EU much if at all. And yet EU still suffers from similar issues, which is indicative to me that the situations that you pointed as happening on your end isn't the core source of the problem since it barely happens on my end, and if you want to disagree on this, feel free to, but you're not gonna change my mind beyond pitying NA for having to deal with what you listed. It must genuinely suck.

And this is where I genuinely have a difficult time understanding what your problem with FL is so much so that you want the developer's answers. You say matches devolve into steamrolls; over in 5 minutes, and when I confirm that it is in fact a thing, but not so on JP games, you turn around and say you haven't played on NA in years and barely see such behaviors on EU. So, what? What's the entire point of this thread? Are you complaining on behalf of NA because everything you described in your opening post apparently isn't an issue on EU? You're not doing much to convince me that you're not just backpedaling after losing the proverbial plot.

The only thing you're consistently tried so far is trying to shift the subject back to strawmen, and the subject has never been about blaming premades.

No, I've contributed much more than that thus far, you just choose to ignore them to continue to argue pedantically. You keep using that word "strawman," but I don't think it means what you think it does. Quite frankly, you don't really have a subject to argue about here. You mentioning role actions here and there is not feedback. The closest thing you provided to feedback that didn't pertain to being a premade issue is your brief part about you believing it is a "tank meta" with their role actions exacerbating the meta. There's nothing "clear" about what you think you're arguing for, it takes reading all the way to post #22 to actually see a clear example. You don't even mention the word "tank" in your first post.

Edit: if you actually want to shit on premade haters or just state your disagreement with people blaming said premades for all the woes on earth, then I'd respectfully point you to that other active thread currently called "Ban Premades from Frontlines".

No, I'm fine. That thread can fade back into obscurity. Maybe your first post should have gone there instead, though, instead of making a blog-rant thread.

[Chocochic]

The only thing you're consistently tried so far is trying to shift the subject back to strawmen, and the subject has never been about blaming premades.

OK, but multiple people have interpreted your subject as blaming premades because of your opening post being making constant passive-aggressive jabs about premades. One of your posts even complains about the fact that premades members are hard to kill and ruin/reduce the potential of solo players because of how much resources is required to kill them; that in of itself is blaming premades. I don't think it's strawmanning if the only information that can really be pulled from your post is that you clearly don't like premades, it's just trying to make a general link to what you're saying.