Lack of Gear progression

[Valence]

I think they need to re-evaluate gear sources, namely dungeon loot and NM raid gear, as well as AR gear.

- Crafted gear should be the baseline ilvl0 for each tier for people to get started.
- Dungeon gear should be at least identical ilvl with additional perks (more on this below), but shouldn't out-compete crafted since it can be farmed without restrictions.
- NM raid gear should be ilvl+10, same as baseline tome gear. NM raid gear is capped per week much like tome gear and has no business being starting ilvl like crafted. NM raid gear should also drop weapons with time caveats, much like tome.
- AR gear should be ilvl+20, same as augmented tome gear. No reason not to, else it's useless in its current state and doesn't offer any alternatives to tome BiS. Odd patches are where savage tiers are already old and casuals start to compete with savage loot when they finally can augment their tome gear anyway, so what's AR gear more? More options = better

Making gear more than just +1 or +2 on the main numbers:

- Dungeon loot could have semi rng perks (bring back pink gear from Diadem!), and perhaps those could be upgraded with various casual tokens obtained over time so that it can keep up with NM and tome gear. Go wild, bring fun random perks players can be proud of beyond +10 to the main stat or whatever. This would be disabled in savage content for safety (or not idc).
- Savage loot could also have fixed, by design perks (not rng) that keep it better than even tome gear or anything casual, specifically in hard content where any wild perk is disabled.

But what do I know... I just think the only thing Diadem 1.0 did right was the gear, funnily enough. It was fun going in to get better and weirder gear in there.

[Alahard]

I think they need to re-evaluate gear sources, namely dungeon loot and NM raid gear, as well as AR gear.

- Dungeon loot could have semi rng perks (bring back pink gear from Diadem!), and perhaps those could be upgraded with various casual tokens obtained over time so that it can keep up with NM and tome gear. Go wild, bring fun random perks players can be proud of beyond +10 to the main stat or whatever. This would be disabled in savage content for safety (or not idc).
- Savage loot could also have fixed, by design perks (not rng) that keep it better than even tome gear or anything casual, specifically in hard content where any wild perk is disabled.

But what do I know... I just think the only thing Diadem 1.0 did right was the gear, funnily enough. It was fun going in to get better and weirder gear in there.

That was the worst part of Diadem. Doing all that work for the bis weapon only for it to roll only accuracy and nothing else.
No, random substats belong in the trash.

- NM raid gear should be ilvl+10, same as baseline tome gear. NM raid gear is capped per week much like tome gear and has no business being starting ilvl like crafted. NM raid gear

That's probably the only thing in there that I agree with.

The bigger issue is horizontal gearing on one toon is just a pain in the arse. I have all these classes leveled, why is it difficult to get them geared after 2+ months?

[BigCheez]

That was the worst part of Diadem. Doing all that work for the bis weapon only for it to roll only accuracy and nothing else.
No, random substats belong in the trash.


That's probably the only thing in there that I agree with.

The bigger issue is horizontal gearing on one toon is just a pain in the arse. I have all these classes leveled, why is it difficult to get them geared after 2+ months?

Is 2 months really a long time in the context of a game that's designed to be played for years, or does it just feel like a long time because it's a pointless grind that doesn't take you anywhere other than back to the same relative power level that you were at last patch?

In FFXI, you'd still be working on getting your jobs geared after 2 years. ...And that isn't a bad thing. The endgame is tiered, so you have a bunch of different content to work through for different rewards, and a lot of gear has unique effects that makes it situationally useful long after you get it. The level cap has been 99 for a decade and there are still lvl 75 pieces that are useful.

I don't think the problem is that it takes too long to get geared, because it simply doesn't. It's actually insanely fast. The problem is that gearing is so meaningless that it only serves as an inconvenience.

[Valence]

That was the worst part of Diadem. Doing all that work for the bis weapon only for it to roll only accuracy and nothing else.
No, random substats belong in the trash.

1) Diadem 1.0 gear appeared in the odd patch following Gordias, where Gordias was already obsolete, but with it offering i210 items I do hear the complaint about it and that's probably why SE only used i265 gear for the second Diadem in 3.55 instead of BiS item level (even though they fucked up big time with the i280 coven weapons).

2) What I wrote never mentioned it to be BiS for savage competition, and in fact I'm pretty sure I mentioned that savage could disable all those perks anyway. This was strictly proposed within the confines of casual content. You even quoted the part where I specifically say "Savage loot could also have fixed, by design perks (not rng) that keep it better than even tome gear or anything casual", so I'm not sure how much clearer I can be.

3) By definition there is no BIS if substats are rng, except perhaps an absolute mathematical maximum that is unreachable anyway. Which is perfectly fine in casual content and improves shelf life dramatically.

[Alahard]

1) Diadem 1.0 gear appeared in the odd patch following Gordias, where Gordias was already obsolete, but with it offering i210 items I do hear the complaint about it and that's probably why SE only used i265 gear for the second Diadem in 3.55 instead of BiS item level (even though they fucked up big time with the i280 coven weapons).

2) What I wrote never mentioned it to be BiS for savage competition, and in fact I'm pretty sure I mentioned that savage could disable all those perks anyway. This was strictly proposed within the confines of casual content. You even quoted the part where I specifically say "Savage loot could also have fixed, by design perks (not rng) that keep it better than even tome gear or anything casual", so I'm not sure how much clearer I can be.

3) By definition there is no BIS if substats are rng, except perhaps an absolute mathematical maximum that is unreachable anyway. Which is perfectly fine in casual content and improves shelf life dramatically.

Even when it's not BIS, this game has a really bad time dealing with specific substats.

Throwing around random skillspeed/spellspeed when classes like PLD exist is just a disaster.

But more importantly, it's not even useful if it's only applied at the lower level.

Lets only allow the casual players get frustrated over their loot while the hardcore gets a clear progression path? Oh god. Both sides would be up in arms. Again.

The better solution is adding alternative gearing to more engaging casual content, and adding an upgrade path through that into near savage loot.

For example -> lets say OC had a DLL equivalent. Having the +2 gear out of it ( and +3 on the FT we currently got) upgrade IL outside of instance along with inside would be an improvement.
Allowing dungeon gear to feed into the upgrade path by converting items into currency ( like silver) would also give some use for those items.

Now you have a clear path, you know what substats you are getting, and it's not nearly as bounded by the RNG gods.

[Valence]

Even when it's not BIS, this game has a really bad time dealing with specific substats.

Throwing around random skillspeed/spellspeed when classes like PLD exist is just a disaster.

But more importantly, it's not even useful if it's only applied at the lower level.

Lets only allow the casual players get frustrated over their loot while the hardcore gets a clear progression path? Oh god. Both sides would be up in arms. Again.

The better solution is adding alternative gearing to more engaging casual content, and adding an upgrade path through that into near savage loot.

For example -> lets say OC had a DLL equivalent. Having the +2 gear out of it ( and +3 on the FT we currently got) upgrade IL outside of instance along with inside would be an improvement.
Allowing dungeon gear to feed into the upgrade path by converting items into currency ( like silver) would also give some use for those items.

Now you have a clear path, you know what substats you are getting, and it's not nearly as bounded by the RNG gods.

Why do you need a clear path and a path to what? We're not talking about binary atmas. We're not talking about rng into BiS. We're talking about a limitless loop of casual gearing. Check out the borderlands model if you're not convinced.

Reading those two last answers honestly make me feel like I have no idea where you both are coming from with your replies. Extremely puzzling to read, sorry.

[Alahard]

Why do you need a clear path and a path to what? We're not talking about binary atmas. We're not talking about rng into BiS. We're talking about a limitless loop of casual gearing. Check out the borderlands model if you're not convinced.

Reading those two last answers honestly make me feel like I have no idea where you both are coming from with your replies. Extremely puzzling to read, sorry.

Borderlands work because the entire game is structured to gain all kinds of wacky weapons and random raritys with tons of different stats. One second your using a rocket pistol, and the next a smg that spits acid and grenades.

It doesn't work in 14 because
1)Randomized gear in ff14 is : substats that don't change how you play. Except for one. That makes certain clases a hinderance to play if the value is not optimal. There is no exciting gameplay change when gaining +50 det.

2) Its not endless due to the fact there is only like 4 things gear can roll, and realistically it's only going to be dungeon gear. Which will get replaced with the tomegear anyways, which needs to have fixed stats.

3) Every time random gear has been added, its caused more complaints then its worth for the whole community.

A better "endless" form of gearing is alternate gearing, assuming square can get their OC/Bodja/Eureka equivalent out earlier, and proper. Long grinds that reflect in actual power gains both inside and outside that players can work towards.
Of course any better casual gearing system, requires the dev to make good casual content. So closer to bodja style mix of content, but introduce it on launch, build on it patch by patch, and allow other activities ( treasure maps for example) also assist in the process.

[Valence]

Borderlands work because the entire game is structured to gain all kinds of wacky weapons and random raritys with tons of different stats. One second your using a rocket pistol, and the next a smg that spits acid and grenades.

It doesn't work in 14 because
1)Randomized gear in ff14 is : substats that don't change how you play. Except for one. That makes certain clases a hinderance to play if the value is not optimal. There is no exciting gameplay change when gaining +50 det.

2) Its not endless due to the fact there is only like 4 things gear can roll, and realistically it's only going to be dungeon gear. Which will get replaced with the tomegear anyways, which needs to have fixed stats.

3) Every time random gear has been added, its caused more complaints then its worth for the whole community.

A better "endless" form of gearing is alternate gearing, assuming square can get their OC/Bodja/Eureka equivalent out earlier, and proper. Long grinds that reflect in actual power gains both inside and outside that players can work towards.
Of course any better casual gearing system, requires the dev to make good casual content. So closer to bodja style mix of content, but introduce it on launch, build on it patch by patch, and allow other activities ( treasure maps for example) also assist in the process.

1) That was the whole point of bringing in exotic perks and making substats that do matter. Unless you're actually trying to defend the bland substats we currently have?

2) Refer to above, and cf tome gear: no it won't because it would keep up in terms of efficiency with tome gear ideally. Savage would still get an edge because you can't get augmented tome during a savage patch.

3) Because they keep fucking it up.

Having alternative gear sources is also a great thing I've been advocating for yes, but everything they have given us during the whole of XIV history has been a shitshow that is always inferior to tome gear. It should COMPETE with it, else it's just useful inside eureka/bozja/oc and nowhere else.

[BigCheez]

Even when it's not BIS, this game has a really bad time dealing with specific substats.

Throwing around random skillspeed/spellspeed when classes like PLD exist is just a disaster.

But more importantly, it's not even useful if it's only applied at the lower level.

Lets only allow the casual players get frustrated over their loot while the hardcore gets a clear progression path? Oh god. Both sides would be up in arms. Again.

The better solution is adding alternative gearing to more engaging casual content, and adding an upgrade path through that into near savage loot.

For example -> lets say OC had a DLL equivalent. Having the +2 gear out of it ( and +3 on the FT we currently got) upgrade IL outside of instance along with inside would be an improvement.
Allowing dungeon gear to feed into the upgrade path by converting items into currency ( like silver) would also give some use for those items.

Now you have a clear path, you know what substats you are getting, and it's not nearly as bounded by the RNG gods.

Why would casual players be frustrated?

What do people need savage ilvl loot for if they aren't doing savage? You don't need savage gear for savage, never mind normal mode content.

[Alahard]

Why would casual players be frustrated?

What do people need savage ilvl loot for if they aren't doing savage? You don't need savage gear for savage, never mind normal mode content.

While I agree that its not needed per say, thats not the goal of the gear.

The goal of the gear is to give a goal for those players to pursue. The goal just needs actual good content around it.

And as raiders, you need that player base to stick around because realistically they give a much larger share of the money to square than we do. More of them potentially means they can push more raiding content for us raiders.