Lack of Gear progression

[Valence]

That was the worst part of Diadem. Doing all that work for the bis weapon only for it to roll only accuracy and nothing else.
No, random substats belong in the trash.

1) Diadem 1.0 gear appeared in the odd patch following Gordias, where Gordias was already obsolete, but with it offering i210 items I do hear the complaint about it and that's probably why SE only used i265 gear for the second Diadem in 3.55 instead of BiS item level (even though they fucked up big time with the i280 coven weapons).

2) What I wrote never mentioned it to be BiS for savage competition, and in fact I'm pretty sure I mentioned that savage could disable all those perks anyway. This was strictly proposed within the confines of casual content. You even quoted the part where I specifically say "Savage loot could also have fixed, by design perks (not rng) that keep it better than even tome gear or anything casual", so I'm not sure how much clearer I can be.

3) By definition there is no BIS if substats are rng, except perhaps an absolute mathematical maximum that is unreachable anyway. Which is perfectly fine in casual content and improves shelf life dramatically.

[Alahard]

1) Diadem 1.0 gear appeared in the odd patch following Gordias, where Gordias was already obsolete, but with it offering i210 items I do hear the complaint about it and that's probably why SE only used i265 gear for the second Diadem in 3.55 instead of BiS item level (even though they fucked up big time with the i280 coven weapons).

2) What I wrote never mentioned it to be BiS for savage competition, and in fact I'm pretty sure I mentioned that savage could disable all those perks anyway. This was strictly proposed within the confines of casual content. You even quoted the part where I specifically say "Savage loot could also have fixed, by design perks (not rng) that keep it better than even tome gear or anything casual", so I'm not sure how much clearer I can be.

3) By definition there is no BIS if substats are rng, except perhaps an absolute mathematical maximum that is unreachable anyway. Which is perfectly fine in casual content and improves shelf life dramatically.

Even when it's not BIS, this game has a really bad time dealing with specific substats.

Throwing around random skillspeed/spellspeed when classes like PLD exist is just a disaster.

But more importantly, it's not even useful if it's only applied at the lower level.

Lets only allow the casual players get frustrated over their loot while the hardcore gets a clear progression path? Oh god. Both sides would be up in arms. Again.

The better solution is adding alternative gearing to more engaging casual content, and adding an upgrade path through that into near savage loot.

For example -> lets say OC had a DLL equivalent. Having the +2 gear out of it ( and +3 on the FT we currently got) upgrade IL outside of instance along with inside would be an improvement.
Allowing dungeon gear to feed into the upgrade path by converting items into currency ( like silver) would also give some use for those items.

Now you have a clear path, you know what substats you are getting, and it's not nearly as bounded by the RNG gods.

[Valence]

Even when it's not BIS, this game has a really bad time dealing with specific substats.

Throwing around random skillspeed/spellspeed when classes like PLD exist is just a disaster.

But more importantly, it's not even useful if it's only applied at the lower level.

Lets only allow the casual players get frustrated over their loot while the hardcore gets a clear progression path? Oh god. Both sides would be up in arms. Again.

The better solution is adding alternative gearing to more engaging casual content, and adding an upgrade path through that into near savage loot.

For example -> lets say OC had a DLL equivalent. Having the +2 gear out of it ( and +3 on the FT we currently got) upgrade IL outside of instance along with inside would be an improvement.
Allowing dungeon gear to feed into the upgrade path by converting items into currency ( like silver) would also give some use for those items.

Now you have a clear path, you know what substats you are getting, and it's not nearly as bounded by the RNG gods.

Why do you need a clear path and a path to what? We're not talking about binary atmas. We're not talking about rng into BiS. We're talking about a limitless loop of casual gearing. Check out the borderlands model if you're not convinced.

Reading those two last answers honestly make me feel like I have no idea where you both are coming from with your replies. Extremely puzzling to read, sorry.

[Alahard]

Why do you need a clear path and a path to what? We're not talking about binary atmas. We're not talking about rng into BiS. We're talking about a limitless loop of casual gearing. Check out the borderlands model if you're not convinced.

Reading those two last answers honestly make me feel like I have no idea where you both are coming from with your replies. Extremely puzzling to read, sorry.

Borderlands work because the entire game is structured to gain all kinds of wacky weapons and random raritys with tons of different stats. One second your using a rocket pistol, and the next a smg that spits acid and grenades.

It doesn't work in 14 because
1)Randomized gear in ff14 is : substats that don't change how you play. Except for one. That makes certain clases a hinderance to play if the value is not optimal. There is no exciting gameplay change when gaining +50 det.

2) Its not endless due to the fact there is only like 4 things gear can roll, and realistically it's only going to be dungeon gear. Which will get replaced with the tomegear anyways, which needs to have fixed stats.

3) Every time random gear has been added, its caused more complaints then its worth for the whole community.

A better "endless" form of gearing is alternate gearing, assuming square can get their OC/Bodja/Eureka equivalent out earlier, and proper. Long grinds that reflect in actual power gains both inside and outside that players can work towards.
Of course any better casual gearing system, requires the dev to make good casual content. So closer to bodja style mix of content, but introduce it on launch, build on it patch by patch, and allow other activities ( treasure maps for example) also assist in the process.

[Valence]

Borderlands work because the entire game is structured to gain all kinds of wacky weapons and random raritys with tons of different stats. One second your using a rocket pistol, and the next a smg that spits acid and grenades.

It doesn't work in 14 because
1)Randomized gear in ff14 is : substats that don't change how you play. Except for one. That makes certain clases a hinderance to play if the value is not optimal. There is no exciting gameplay change when gaining +50 det.

2) Its not endless due to the fact there is only like 4 things gear can roll, and realistically it's only going to be dungeon gear. Which will get replaced with the tomegear anyways, which needs to have fixed stats.

3) Every time random gear has been added, its caused more complaints then its worth for the whole community.

A better "endless" form of gearing is alternate gearing, assuming square can get their OC/Bodja/Eureka equivalent out earlier, and proper. Long grinds that reflect in actual power gains both inside and outside that players can work towards.
Of course any better casual gearing system, requires the dev to make good casual content. So closer to bodja style mix of content, but introduce it on launch, build on it patch by patch, and allow other activities ( treasure maps for example) also assist in the process.

1) That was the whole point of bringing in exotic perks and making substats that do matter. Unless you're actually trying to defend the bland substats we currently have?

2) Refer to above, and cf tome gear: no it won't because it would keep up in terms of efficiency with tome gear ideally. Savage would still get an edge because you can't get augmented tome during a savage patch.

3) Because they keep fucking it up.

Having alternative gear sources is also a great thing I've been advocating for yes, but everything they have given us during the whole of XIV history has been a shitshow that is always inferior to tome gear. It should COMPETE with it, else it's just useful inside eureka/bozja/oc and nowhere else.

[Alahard]

1) That was the whole point of bringing in exotic perks and making substats that do matter. Unless you're actually trying to defend the bland substats we currently have?

2) Refer to above, and cf tome gear: no it won't because it would keep up in terms of efficiency with tome gear ideally. Savage would still get an edge because you can't get augmented tome during a savage patch.

3) Because they keep fucking it up.

Having alternative gear sources is also a great thing I've been advocating for yes, but everything they have given us during the whole of XIV history has been a shitshow that is always inferior to tome gear. It should COMPETE with it, else it's just useful inside eureka/bozja/oc and nowhere else.

1) Im not defending the current substats, But then it needs to be applied uniformly. Cant just give those effects to one group and not the other. Which either the savage effects need to be so broken to compete with the casual ones, which also need to be good to be worthwhile to grind for, or they will also be in a rng grindfest.

2)If it keeps up with tome gear then the rng also applies to raiders since we rely on that level of gear. Half of the bis on average is upgraded tome, and non upgraded is also used while prog is happening.

3) I guess you can say that? but in what way can they not mess it up? you either get a good roll or you dont.

[BigCheez]

Even when it's not BIS, this game has a really bad time dealing with specific substats.

Throwing around random skillspeed/spellspeed when classes like PLD exist is just a disaster.

But more importantly, it's not even useful if it's only applied at the lower level.

Lets only allow the casual players get frustrated over their loot while the hardcore gets a clear progression path? Oh god. Both sides would be up in arms. Again.

The better solution is adding alternative gearing to more engaging casual content, and adding an upgrade path through that into near savage loot.

For example -> lets say OC had a DLL equivalent. Having the +2 gear out of it ( and +3 on the FT we currently got) upgrade IL outside of instance along with inside would be an improvement.
Allowing dungeon gear to feed into the upgrade path by converting items into currency ( like silver) would also give some use for those items.

Now you have a clear path, you know what substats you are getting, and it's not nearly as bounded by the RNG gods.

Why would casual players be frustrated?

What do people need savage ilvl loot for if they aren't doing savage? You don't need savage gear for savage, never mind normal mode content.

[Alahard]

Why would casual players be frustrated?

What do people need savage ilvl loot for if they aren't doing savage? You don't need savage gear for savage, never mind normal mode content.

While I agree that its not needed per say, thats not the goal of the gear.

The goal of the gear is to give a goal for those players to pursue. The goal just needs actual good content around it.

And as raiders, you need that player base to stick around because realistically they give a much larger share of the money to square than we do. More of them potentially means they can push more raiding content for us raiders.