Difficult experience in Forked Tower – a reminder to respect public content

[Jeeqbit]

I'm curious, what makes you say that? Stuff like the first EX of the expansion, Valigarmanda was designed to be easy enough to be someone's first high end content

It's because some people don't want access to high end content in the first place and aren't looking for it to be harder than a normal mode. They just want the normal content to hold their attention for an extended period of time, rather than being like a quest that you do, then it's done.

[Volgia]

So why repeat it?

Because you keep saying it, and you're wrong.

EX+ raids are not accessible to non-raiders.

I think we come to this crux of the problem. EX+ raids are not accessible for people who don't enjoy raiding and get aggressive for the fact that they do a miniscule amount of content for people who like raiding. I define Ultimate as the only hardcore content because it's true, it's the only content you can do that will always require organization and progging. If you do Stormblood savages today they require no such thing. You can't do UWU/UCOB without a party that's willing to prog.

I'm babbling here because it's the only way I can get value out of the last few weeks of my 6-month subscription.

I'm sorry you're not enjoying the game anymore, but I promise you it's not because they have _some_ hardcore content in the game. Forked Tower would not have lasted you 6 months if it was another CLL/Dalriada.

[Mawlzy]

I'm curious, what makes you say that? Stuff like the first EX of the expansion, Valigarmanda was designed to be easy enough to be someone's first high end content

I don't have the dexterity nor the cognitive processing speed to clear such content. It took me 20 wipes to get through Origenics with NPCs. But as Jeeqbit says, I and many others simply do not enjoy such content.

When I discovered there was a significant community that enjoyed PvE in this game, I was honestly shocked. It's the worst I've experienced in any MMO, and to do more than is absolutely necessary would be as appealing as sticking a fork in my eye.

I'm sorry you're not enjoying the game anymore, but I promise you it's not because they have _some_ hardcore content in the game. Forked Tower would not have lasted you 6 months if it was another CLL/Dalriada.

Aha. Common ground. You're quite right that the presence of hardcore content has no impact on me at all, in principle.

In practice, however, and as evidenced by the last LL, these limited resources that SE labors under means that content that I do like is lacking.

I would also argue that the direction of the game - to a very specific and limited form of PvE that to me is mind-numbingly dull - is being driven to a large extent by what SE believes the raiding community wants. And we have been promised that 8.0 will again double-down on this philosophy (cf. changes to BLM so that a once slow-caster can keep up with the stupid DDR design).

[Sethani]

If you're this unhappy with the actual design on xiv content, just talk with your wallet

[Volgia]

Aha. Common ground. You're quite right that the presence of hardcore content has no impact on me at all, in principle.

In practice, however, and as evidenced by the last LL, these limited resources that SE labors under means that content that I do like is lacking.

I would also argue that the direction of the game - to a very specific and limited form of PvE that to me is mind-numbingly dull - is being driven to a large extent by what SE believes the raiding community wants. And we have been promised that 8.0 will again double-down on this philosophy (cf. changes to BLM so that a once slow-caster can keep up with the stupid DDR design).

I'd argue that their DDR design is actually one of FFXIV's strongest points. The problem starts being on the way they implement difficulty, like for instance, you feel like the PvE part of the game is mind-numbing boring, that's because they dumbed down every single job to make it "accessible" for people to go into savage, a misunderstanding that people don't go into savage because they don't like that type of content, but people who enjoy savage raiding did not ask for the jobs to be dumbed down.

Yoshi-P blamed the community because we complained about jobs being too clunky and complex, I always found this to either be a misunderstanding or a redirection of blame. Players complain about stuff they enjoy all the time.
I think the true reason is because it's cheaper to design content when it's not bogged down by job complexity.

Long-term MMOs always end up with this issue mind you, jobs in WoW felt complex during Vanilla whereas the way it evolved had highs and lows on how samey all their jobs and skill trees started feeling. So it's hard for me to judge not being a developer.

[0blivion]

They also are afraid of nerfing things, which is partially because the game is P2P. In F2P games, a lot of devs just adjust balance every five seconds to ensure semi balanced gameplay. CBU3 is scared of that, so instead they sacrificed individuality for streamlining and also making savage accessible to people who really, really shouldn't be in it.

[Jeeqbit]

I'd argue that their DDR design is actually one of FFXIV's strongest points.

Personally I'm fine with it but obviously not everyone likes it.

that's because they dumbed down every single job to make it "accessible" for people to go into savage

Isn't just that. Homogenization was because people asked for it like "why does the other job in my role have an ability but mine doesn't". And there were complaints about complexity, like with Summoner, that led to where it is now.

Job complexity can make the content fun for longer, but only to an extent. Arguably the main way it can do this is if the holy trinity matters more. If your only form of fun as a healer is optimizing your damage output and you don't even need to heal (me as a Sage in Expert roulette), and your own form of fun as a Warrior is optimizing damage because Bloodwhetting handles everything and interrupts aren't useful, it becomes really stale.

What makes it more stale than anything is the lack of variety. The variety could come in the form of Expert roulette having more than 2 dungeons in it, or it could come from randomizing casts, or randomizing some other element. As much as variant dungeons are attempting this, we do those for the mount then never enter them ever again, ever.

So it's hard for me to judge not being a developer.

They get the same feedback, try to optimize based upon it and arrive at the same point given enough time. Then they realize it was a mistake. WoW realized that and added complex skill tree again, while Yoshi-P acknowledged it too but hasn't addressed it yet.

[Saraide]

Personally I'm fine with it but obviously not everyone likes it.
Isn't just that. Homogenization was because people asked for it like "why does the other job in my role have an ability but mine doesn't". And there were complaints about complexity, like with Summoner, that led to where it is now.

Job complexity can make the content fun for longer, but only to an extent. Arguably the main way it can do this is if the holy trinity matters more. If your only form of fun as a healer is optimizing your damage output and you don't even need to heal (me as a Sage in Expert roulette), and your own form of fun as a Warrior is optimizing damage because Bloodwhetting handles everything and interrupts aren't useful, it becomes really stale.

What makes it more stale than anything is the lack of variety. The variety could come in the form of Expert roulette having more than 2 dungeons in it, or it could come from randomizing casts, or randomizing some other element. As much as variant dungeons are attempting this, we do those for the mount then never enter them ever again, ever.
They get the same feedback, try to optimize based upon it and arrive at the same point given enough time. Then they realize it was a mistake. WoW realized that and added complex skill tree again, while Yoshi-P acknowledged it too but hasn't addressed it yet.

The problem is that they dont have their own coherent vision for the game that they believe in. That's why it appears they are caught between contradictory feedback.

[Andevom]

Homogenization was because people asked for it like "why does the other job in my role have an ability but mine doesn't". And there were complaints about complexity, like with Summoner, that led to where it is now.

It's also because, when the jobs had "identity", some were completely locked out of endgame content. Just ask any MNK how "great" Heavensward was in 2015.

[enthauptet]

It's also because, when the jobs had "identity", some were completely locked out of endgame content. Just ask any MNK how "great" Heavensward was in 2015.

This isn't really relevant to this thread but I'll reply anyway.

I raided on monk in heavensward without any issue but I did have to transfer to a server where people were actually raiding which was the real problem in heavensward but that was true for any job as there literally just weren't enough people on famfrit to make a group.

SE probably had a bunch of reasons but I'm not sure they were really any good compared to how they "balance" the jobs these days which is quite something where difficulty has no bearing no how good it ends up being lol. I'm still missing my nastronds too ;_;