Difficult experience in Forked Tower – a reminder to respect public content

[Mawlzy]

I see we've reached the point in the discussion where hardcore raiders start trawling around for data to claim "the content is fine, actually," despite the fact the rest of the player base can see it's shit.

[Jeeqbit]

I see we've reached the point in the discussion where hardcore raiders start trawling around for data to claim "the content is fine, actually," despite the fact the rest of the player base can see it's shit.

Being a raider doesn't mean you're hardcore (you could quite literally sub, join a discord run and clear quickly due to callouts, then unsub for 2 years), and I don't think there is anyone actually saying this was a good entry system. They are just saying that, despite the bad entry system, social interaction and etiquette exists.

If they really wanted to do it this way, they should have:

• Allowed people to form 48-person PFs without being warned by a GM.
• Allowed people to enter as an alliance of 48 (it only lets you enter as up to 8 people).
• Had multiple Forked Tower instances in any given instance.
• Allowed the alliance leader to reserve a Forked Tower instance and set a password, then the alliance all enter it.
• Scrapped the weather. It's a needless delay that artificially extends the raid time and leaves everyone tapping their foot.

Wait, so now people not only have to join a Discord but they have to be able to host their own new people runs? You guys keep moving the goalposts here.

I don't know if anyone actually said that, but obviously most people are not saying or expecting people to host their own runs. They are just saying that you can and that it's possible to if you have the confidence and initiative.

This argument stems from the fact humans rarely take initiative. Let's take party forming, for example. If 100 people type /shout lfg, but none of them actually right-click and invite eachother, then none of them took the initiative. In a similar way, if 1000 people try to join a run, but only 1 person organizes a run, then only 48 of them get to do a run.

So they're just saying that if people are struggling to get into a run then it may be that more people need to take the initiative to organize one. But not everyone's gonna be able to bring themselves to do that, just like not everyone's going to be able to bring themselves to invite people who type "lfg" at CEs. Fortunately, not everyone has to - just enough have to.

[AmiableApkallu]

This argument stems from the fact humans rarely take initiative. Let's take party forming, for example. If 100 people type /shout lfg, but none of them actually right-click and invite each other, then none of them took the initiative. In a similar way, if 1000 people try to join a run, but only 1 person organizes a run, then only 48 of them get to do a run.

So they're just saying that if people are struggling to get into a run then it may be that more people need to take the initiative to organize one.

There is no social or in-game cost to randomly inviting people to form a group for a FATE or CE. Someone sees the invite pop-up, they click "yes" (or "no"), and whatever happens, happens. No one cares if they spend 90% of the time on the floor. No one cares if they bail as soon as the next FATE or CE ends. More importantly, no one cares if the nominal party leader does nothing at all except maybe invite more people as others leave. There is no need to herd cats.

On the other hand, a run that needs 24+ people to bring specific {jobs/items/whatever} and for all those people to know specific {strats}... that exists in a completely different world, one where a willingness to herd cats actually matters.

It's easy to be a keyboard warrior and tell everyone, "just organize and herd cats." It's a far different matter to actually be that herder of cats.

[Bryson]

I see we've reached the point in the discussion where hardcore raiders start trawling around for data to claim "the content is fine, actually," despite the fact the rest of the player base can see it's shit.

your bar for "hardcore" is incredibly low then

I'd be happy to show you all the casuals in my daily ft reclears

just because you can't clear it, or chose not to, doesn't mean everyone who did is "hardcore"

the amount of time you spend on the forums, could've been on ft instead.

[Mawlzy]

your bar for "hardcore" is incredibly low then

I'd be happy to show you all the casuals in my daily ft reclears

just because you can't clear it, or chose not to, doesn't mean everyone who did is "hardcore"

the amount of time you spend on the forums, could've been on ft instead.

We again run into difficulties in nomenclature. To me, anything that involves progging and/or scheduling is hardcore.

The critical issue, however, is the more people defend this content, the higher the probability SE will dump this garbage on you again.

[Volgia]

We again run into difficulties in nomenclature. To me, anything that involves progging and/or scheduling is hardcore.

I think the funny thing is that casual raiders require scheduling, because they have very busy lives and can only allot time for prog on certain days/hours, whereas hardcore people go ham on prog because they've got time.

Time is the deciding factor on wherever you're a casual player or not, IMO. Enjoying raiding content or not is another issue.

[Mawlzy]

I think the funny thing is that casual riders require scheduling, because they have very busy lives and can only allot time for prog on certain days/hours, whereas hardcore people go ham on prog because they've got time.

Time is the deciding factor on wherever you're a casual player or not, IMO. Enjoying raiding content or not is another issue.

It's optimizing the two, right? Like if you don't have a lot of leisure time, you need to be really passionate to devote what little time you have to raiding.

The reality is that in NA/EU, that conjunction of interest and time only applies to a minority of the player base. What we call it doesn't matter. The issue is SE continues to roll out content that is only attempted by a minority of the playerbase, compounding the problem by making it difficult to attempt at all.

The Forked Tower, once in, is very fun to go through. Castrum/Dalriada/Delubrum are some of my favourite pieces of content. I enjoy the large scale stuff. I am not alone in this regard. I am also social enough to collaborate with others to get through the inaccessibility of its current implementation.

https://youtu.be/lKie-vgUGdI?si=liQfdFiIMTHE92np

[Volgia]

It's optimizing the two, right? Like if you don't have a lot of leisure time, you need to be really passionate to devote what little time you have to raiding.

The reality is that in NA/EU, that conjunction of interest and time only applies to a minority of the player base. What we call it doesn't matter. The issue is SE continues to roll out content that is only attempted by a minority of the playerbase, compounding the problem by making it difficult to attempt at all.

We've had this argument before, but to reiterate: Dungeons, 24 man alliance raids, Normal Raids, Normal Trials, Deep Dungeons, Criterion (not savage dungeons), Eureka, Bozja, OC, Crafting, Gathering, Cosmic Exploration, Triibe Quests, Island Sanctuary, Housing, MSQ, Golden Saucer minigames, Triple Triad collecting, FATEs, Relic grinds, a staggering amount of content is made and designed for people to casually go through it.

Things like Extremes and Savages have a life shell of 6-9 months. After that it becomes casual content, because you can tank through most of the mechanics and DPS bosses down super fast, never mind after a couple of expansions where bosses don't last more than 10 seconds.

People want to make a divide between hardcore players and casual players but this game has barely any hardcore content at all. The only thing hardcore people have are Ultimates, and even then things like UWU start feeling like an extreme due to stat squishes and power creep.

[Mawlzy]

We've had this argument before, but to reiterate: Dungeons, 24 man alliance raids, Normal Raids, Normal Trials, Deep Dungeons, Criterion (not savage dungeons), Eureka, Bozja, OC, Crafting, Gathering, Cosmic Exploration, Triibe Quests, Island Sanctuary, Housing, MSQ, Golden Saucer minigames, Triple Triad collecting, FATEs, Relic grinds, a staggering amount of content is made and designed for people to casually go through it.

Things like Extremes and Savages have a life shell of 6-9 months. After that it becomes casual content, because you can tank through most of the mechanics and DPS bosses down super fast, never mind after a couple of expansions where bosses don't last more than 10 seconds.

People want to make a divide between hardcore players and casual players but this game has barely any hardcore content at all. The only thing hardcore people have are Ultimates, and even then things like UWU start feeling like an extreme due to stat squishes and power creep.

So why repeat it? That content is accessible to everyone. EX+ raids are not accessible to non-raiders. If you define Ultimates as the only hardcore content, of course you reach your silly conclusion.

Now you can argue that "accessibility" is a choice, although I think you're wrong. But the bottom line is that non-raiders are feeling aggrieved by the content balance and schedule, and are leaving in droves. I'm not playing the game. I'm babbling here because it's the only way I can get value out of the last few weeks of my 6-month subscription.

You'll be rid of me soon enough!

I can't say I've seen such an active participant in this forum be so allergic to discussion. Perplexing.

Why on earth would I discuss anything with you? All you do is question my comprehension skills, so from both our points of view a discussion would be tantamount to lunacy.

[Neclord]

https://youtu.be/lKie-vgUGdI?si=liQfdFiIMTHE92np

I can't say I've seen such an active participant in this forum be so allergic to discussion. Perplexing.

Why on earth would I discuss anything with you? All you do is question my comprehension skills, so from both our points of view a discussion would be tantamount to lunacy.

Perhaps it may be because this is an internet forum. I get it's fun to argue against easier, invented points that nobody in this thread is making (i.e: Forked Tower entry system is an okay design for its difficulty). I'm personally here to find out why people think disruptive behaviour is acceptable solely because the method of entry to the content is a glowing platform - as per the topic of this thread. Post links to YouTube videos at your leisure, I guess.